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United States of America Squamiger
Skirmisher
Posts: 139
ESO: Squamiger

15 May 2019, 16:37

One thing I notice with standard china 700g FF play (tp start, vill card first) is that when you hit age2, you have 2 shipments in queue and one ends up sitting behind the other while it ships. If shipments are resources, in effect this is equivalent to an idle villager. So I’ve starting shipping 300w with my second shipment and making another TP asap, since intuitively it felt better. Now I’ve done a little study to show that I am pretty sure it’s a more powerful way to start as China, as long as you don't lose that second TP immediately to pressure.

I played two 16 minute games against the AI, one in which I shipped 300w as my second shipment, and one in which I didn’t. In both games, I followed the same build order, got roughly the same treasures, and kept pretty much everything else the same.

With standard 1 tp play, I can queue 700g and 700w at the same time, but with this build, I queue 700g immediately when hitting up to age2, and then I am able to queue 700w JUST as 700g arrives. And then when I hit up to fortress, I have a shipment ready to go with more on the way. It almost feels to me like this accomplishes the same effect as Mitoe's no-700g FF, but rather than saving a shipment it just gives you more, and perhaps has the added bonus of setting you up better for a longer game.

I've attached my shipment curves and the recs. From what I can tell I'm already a shipment ahead by 4:30. I know my age-up is a tiny bit slower in my 300w rec, but I think thats just because I'm a sloppy 1st lieut and not because of the 300w.

The other benefit is an extra free 100w after the TP, for a market or your next village.

What do y'all think? Has someone else thought of this before? Is there a reason why we don't see this much in tourney play?
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[RE SP] Squamiger[CH] vs Queen Isabella[SP] - ESOC Florida.age3yrec
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ESOC Florida
ESOC Florida
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch
Length: 17 minutes
[RE SP] Squamiger[CH] vs Queen Isabella[SP] - ESOC Florida.age3yrec
(1.06 MiB) Downloaded 9 times
ESOC Florida
ESOC Florida
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch
Length: 17 minutes
2tp_china.png
2tp_china.png (512.01 KiB) Viewed 371 times
1tp_china.png
1tp_china.png (497.11 KiB) Viewed 371 times
ajabu ya kondoo kucheka kioo
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India Challenger_Marco
Lancer
Posts: 540
ESO: challenger_marco
Location: India

15 May 2019, 17:02

As china if you go for 2nd tp its obvious your opponent will kill it coz its greedy ,so ur opponent can semi ff /like 5 pikes semi or 5 dopps semi or whatever and you immediately loose your 2nd tp and wastw 200w which you could have saved the shipment for better cards or invest into something more safe n useful ,so most probably your 2nd tp is not safe and not easy to defend ,if u want to defend your forced to stay in age 2 ,and china aint that much strong so....hope it clarifies why most ppl dont use in tourney.
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Canada vividlyplain
Crossbow
Posts: 34
ESO: vividlyplain

15 May 2019, 17:34

I vote tp open, 300w as first shipment, and 10/10 rush with a forward village/rax. xD
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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
EWTNWC LAN Top 8Donator 03
Posts: 3868
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

15 May 2019, 18:02

300w second is fine, but personally I only do it when there’s a chance that my opponent might want to take more TPs (e.g. Port ATP) and I want to deny them, or I want to go for a quick stagecoach myself.

Otherwise, I think it’s better to save the shipment and chop 200w for a 2nd TP in transition. You can still age on time doing this, but you get to save that shipment for Fortress rather than spending it on 300 resources
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United States of America Squamiger
Skirmisher
Posts: 139
ESO: Squamiger

15 May 2019, 19:02

@Challenger_Marco yea it's definitely greedy and it depends on the situation. I think it can be used in four situations: 1. when playing age 2 as china, where you can build your forward base near the further TP, 2. when you have two TPs easily protected, like Manchuria / Patagonia, 3. when you're absolutely sure you're facing a FF, like a China mirror or vs. Spain maybe, and 4. like Mitoe said, to deny ATP.

@Mitoe isn't that an even greedier build though? It seems like the main problem with 300w 2nd tp is that its already a bit too greedy, but getting 2 tps and saving the shipment by chopping sounds like its even greedier and more punishable
ajabu ya kondoo kucheka kioo
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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
EWTNWC LAN Top 8Donator 03
Posts: 3868
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

15 May 2019, 21:38

Taking a 2nd TP regardless of whether you're sending 300w 2nd to do so is always greedy as China, yeah. The thing is--as you've already lauded to in your original post--you do actually have less shipments early on. You still get 700c 700w back to back, but if you needed to send another shipment like 9 pike or 8 CKN, for example, you would have trouble doing so if you sent 300w, but no so much trouble if you had just chopped the wood for the 2nd TP.

If you're in a situation where you feel safe enough to send 300w for a TP, I feel it's better to chop for it instead. If you're uncertain I think it's often better even to wait until 700w (so you should know what your opponent is up to at this point) and then add a 2nd TP if it is safe to do so, and then follow it up with 600w or 1000w afterwards.


The main reason you should send 300w 2nd is if you need the wood even earlier so that you can either take more than 2 TPs, or else deny your opponent an extra TP (like vs Ottomans or Portuguese). Or on a map like Fertile Crescent where you want to get both TPs before your opponent can steal one from you and deny you stagecoach later on.

It's not bad to send it in other situations, I just personally feel that it's slightly suboptimal compared to the alternatives.
No Flag Superfly47
Crossbow
Posts: 19
ESO: Superfly47

16 May 2019, 21:53

For maps with 4+ contested tps what about Trade Empire then 300w? Do standard 1 village, 1tp. Send Trade Empire, have tp wagon build tp at opposite side of map from your monk. Send 300w, harvest 20 wood lets your monk build 2 tps. An advantage is you’re building tps in age 1, whereas Euros with ATP wait until they start to age before chopping wood for tps. You can get 4 tps built before Euro has wood to build 1. You do miss out on 2 vils. Not sure if you should stay age 2 to protect tps or go FF.

The problem with your simulation is once the fighting starts, most of the xp comes from killing units, creating buildings, building units. The value of xp from tps goes down the longer the game goes as the amount of xp generated from normal gameplay increases.

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