Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 Apr 2019, 12:44

Id rather cascade than shit island
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France [Armag] diarouga
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25 Apr 2019, 12:46

No, Island>Cascade.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 Apr 2019, 13:01

In your opinion which isnt a fact
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France Kaiserklein
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25 Apr 2019, 13:13

Both of your opinions aren't facts. It's not about preference anyway... I like playing on cascade. It's just not a standard map. Herald island is rather standard on the other hand.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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25 Apr 2019, 13:15

BrookG wrote:AFAIK the probability of choosing any map from the set is fixed from the Devs.

In current mapsets made by ESOC, every map has the same probability.
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 Apr 2019, 13:16

Kaiserklein wrote:Both of your opinions aren't facts. It's not about preference anyway... I like playing on cascade. It's just not a standard map. Herald island is rather standard on the other hand.

I never claimed mine was hence the “id rather” in my initial post
Not my fault diarougas a dangerous crack head
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France Kaiserklein
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25 Apr 2019, 14:43

Hazza54321 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Both of your opinions aren't facts. It's not about preference anyway... I like playing on cascade. It's just not a standard map. Herald island is rather standard on the other hand.

I never claimed mine was hence the “id rather” in my initial post
Not my fault diarougas a dangerous crack head

I know you didn't, was kinda replying to both. I just feel like herald island is objectively more standard than cascade.

Maybe we could get an "esoc popular maps" set, so that people can play on maps they enjoy, regardless of them being standard or not?
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Greece BrookG
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25 Apr 2019, 14:47

Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

"mr.brookg go buy jeans and goto the club with somppuli" - Princeofkabul, July 2018
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Jun 2019, 15:05

So is this map set finally gonna be reworked or do we have to pick maps?
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Canada Mitoe
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12 Jun 2019, 16:14

@Kaiserklein remember yesterday when we got only TP maps? :D
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Jun 2019, 16:23

Yeah that happened once. Today I got only no tp maps, a couple 5-tp maps, and 2 standard maps
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Armenia Sargsyan
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12 Jun 2019, 16:28

I get bengal like 3 times in a row sometimes
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Jun 2019, 01:20

Yes that's normal
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United States of America Cometk
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13 Jun 2019, 02:00

@Kaiserklein what's the standard map pool you'd like to see implemented?
sebnan12 wrote:whenever i see a picture of siege elephants i question why they do 40~ dmg when they hit u. that phat cannons probably loading coconuts
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Italy Garja
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13 Jun 2019, 02:06

The one where he doesn't get fucked up by variance. I guess get an horseshoe or something.
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Jun 2019, 02:08

Cometk wrote:@Kaiserklein what's the standard map pool you'd like to see implemented?

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 07#p356875
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Italy Garja
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13 Jun 2019, 02:10

That's strictly less standard than the current standard.
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Jun 2019, 02:21

How
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New Zealand zoom
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18 Jun 2019, 16:34

Kaiserklein wrote:
zoom wrote:Having compiled the set, I want to explain the metrics used to define it, as it happened. First, "standard" is less about TPs and more about general civilization viability, map layout, and natural resource availability.

General civilization viability is exactly the point. Maps like Klondike or Cascade have few viable civs for example. Same goes for resource availability, as I said, Cascade is the one esoc map with the least hunts...
Generally speaking, no tp maps reduce the amount of viable civs a lot. That's why it sucks when you get no TP maps all the time. I streamed yesterday and got like 3 no tp maps in a row at some point, and that isn't unusual at all.

zoom wrote:Two of the other several sets I wanted to implement are "TP Maps" and "No-TP Maps", and "Competitive Maps" ("Super-Standard TP-Maps") – Perhaps those are the ones you've in mind, ITT. Second, inclusion was a focus. As you can see, not many maps are excluded from the set. Admittedly, popularity also played a minor part, as I did ask a number of players, at the time, for their thoughts. A few outlier maps are excluded.

You excluded 10 maps or so. The point is that some of the maps you excluded are much more standard than some you kept. I posted itt my idea of what the standard map set should roughly be, I listed 21 maps (only 1 less map than your set), and not only "super standard tp maps".

zoom wrote:Ultimately I think it's captured well in its description:

"A map-set featuring relatively standard ESOC maps, striking a compromise between balance and variety"

We agree on the concept. There has to be variety. But there also has to be balance, and when you keep getting no tp maps or 5 tp maps, you don't get balanced games.

zoom wrote:In my opinion, High Plains and Klondike should be removed from the set. Well, ideally, their respective Trade Routes should have at least one TP removed. Civilization viability on those maps is unnecessarily poor, entirely due to the Trade Routes.

I disagree. Civ viability is easily better on high plains than on cascade range or on indonesia. Yet, you don't argue that we should add hunts to cascade, or reduce the water on indonesia.
All non standard maps favour some civs over some others. That's the case for 5 tp maps, just like it is for no tp maps, super low res maps, heavy water maps, etc. And since there's only 2 maps with a 5 tp line, I really don't see why we should nerf them.
That being said, back to the map set. Well, I argued myself that klondike should be removed. I'd keep high plains because the civ viability on that map is decent, and because if we keep some no tp maps, I don't see why we wouldn't keep one 5 tp map.

zoom wrote:IIRC, Herald Island was excluded due to its extreme layout, and Manchac due to its layout, as well as low resource availability (apart from asking several players, I also spawned all maps ten times in a row, to assess this).

The resources are very decent on both of these maps if you herd enough. And yeah herald island has that weird path on the left, but regardless of that it still plays very standard. Same for manchac with the swamps, it really plays quite standard. Plus bengal has swamps AND a huge cliff AND no tp, and it's in the standard maps set anyway lol.
Thank you for alerting me to your post, and for your patience. I will try to be more communicative.

I largely agree with you. That's why High Plains was included in the bunch, unlike Indonesia. Bengal has more resources (as well as normal mines vs tin mines) and more land-mass than Manchac, and is less obstructed, in terms of game-play (I remember many players I asked being adamant about Manchac's exclusion, at the time). Cascade Range, while low in terms of hunts, has plenty of berries and fish. Herald Island features tin mines, is choked, and rather small, too. I may be underestimating civilization variety on High Plains. Keeping it and removing Klondike seems more reasonable to me.

As well, it again seems to me, that your issue is mainly that this, by design, isn't the set you desire most—not that it's terribly executed. It's a compromise, and an inclusive one at that, not intended to exclude 0TP maps – which you persist in going on and on about.

Kaiserklein wrote:So is this map set finally gonna be reworked or do we have to pick maps?
This particular map set may well see a few maps added and removed with EP7. Also, I would like to add a map set according to your liking (between you and me, I in fact think it's outrageous that it wasn't added, years ago), but in the mean time, I regret that you will, indeed, have to pick maps, in order to achieve a more uniform gameplay experience.

I intend to investigate feedback on the final solution to the map-set question, once the LAN concludes, along with a number of other things. In accordance with feedback from organizers and players alike, I do not currently plan on making any further changes, before that point. However, I will dispatch my top developer to investigate the possibility of making changes to this map-set, immediately.
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New Zealand zoom
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18 Jun 2019, 19:59

My top dev informs me that making such changes is entirely practical.

At present, the set has 16/22 (~73%) TP-maps. If Klondike is removed, it would be 15/21 (~71.4%). ESOC maps are 23/31 (~74%). With these unrelated facts out of the way, let's refocus our efforts on whether any further changes are warranted. As far as I can tell, the only arguable candidates for removal would be: Cascade Range, Malaysia, Tassili, and Thar Desert; the only ones for addition would be: Herald Island, and Manchac.

Let's sleep on it!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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France Kaiserklein
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18 Jun 2019, 20:15

Okay thanks for your reply, I guess we mostly agree.

For the record though, I don't want to remove all no tp maps from the map set. I just feel like they're overrepresented right now. It also doesn't help that most no tp maps happen to have low food (especially thar and cascade), which means even less civs are viable there.

Regarding candidates for removal, I'd mostly consider klondike, cascade and thar. I think they're the 3 least standard maps from the set. Though I wouldn't mind bengal or baja being removed either. Adding herald island and manchac sounds good to me.
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Italy Garja
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18 Jun 2019, 20:59

How are they overepresented, being only 1/4 of total maps?
Cascade Range is a perfectly standard map. Seriously, most of games just play standard colonial on that map, more so than Thar Desert for comparison. And Klondike has similar flow to any heavy TP map really. Actually the only problem with Klondike is the positioning of the mines on the cliff. That can easily be fixed in a way or another.
I don't see why any of those maps should be candidate for removal. Herald Island and Manchac are not in the standard set mostly for layout reasons.
Bengal is as standard as a no TP map can be. If the choke is the problem, can add a passage or simply can make it a river instead of a cliff. I don't see what's not so standard about Baja either. To me it's more like you just don't like the map concept (2 water sides or w/e) more than anything else. Size is standard. Resource amount is standard. TP count is standard.
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New Zealand zoom
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19 Jun 2019, 20:02

Kaiserklein wrote:Okay thanks for your reply, I guess we mostly agree.

For the record though, I don't want to remove all no tp maps from the map set. I just feel like they're overrepresented right now. It also doesn't help that most no tp maps happen to have low food (especially thar and cascade), which means even less civs are viable there.

Regarding candidates for removal, I'd mostly consider klondike, cascade and thar. I think they're the 3 least standard maps from the set. Though I wouldn't mind bengal or baja being removed either. Adding herald island and manchac sounds good to me.
I understand. I didn't mean to misrepresent your view. I only meant that, you seemed to think that this set is intended to exclude 0TP maps.

Moving on, removing Klondike seems reasonable, given the fact that it's basically High Plains with less resources (especially mines), and a perpendicular Route. Civilization viability seems more limited, on that map. Still, it's not bad.

Removing Cascade Range seems less reasonable, given the fact that it has lots of food, while less hunts. What's your problem with the map, in this context?

However much I like the map (a lot), removing Thar Desert from the set is making more and more sense to me. Civilization viability seems too low, on that map.

I think you're right about Herald Island, when it comes to how it plays. I'm especially hesitant to add Manchac. As an aside, I think that map would be even more playable if the circle-plateaux and tree-lines were less obstructive, overall.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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New Zealand zoom
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19 Jun 2019, 20:02

Garja wrote:How are they overepresented, being only 1/4 of total maps?
Cascade Range is a perfectly standard map. Seriously, most of games just play standard colonial on that map, more so than Thar Desert for comparison. And Klondike has similar flow to any heavy TP map really. Actually the only problem with Klondike is the positioning of the mines on the cliff. That can easily be fixed in a way or another.
I don't see why any of those maps should be candidate for removal. Herald Island and Manchac are not in the standard set mostly for layout reasons.
Bengal is as standard as a no TP map can be. If the choke is the problem, can add a passage or simply can make it a river instead of a cliff. I don't see what's not so standard about Baja either. To me it's more like you just don't like the map concept (2 water sides or w/e) more than anything else. Size is standard. Resource amount is standard. TP count is standard.
They are (barely) overrepresented, because they are more common than in the entire pool, and Kaiserklein seems to think there should be fewer of them, if anything. Otherwise, please keep in mind that this discussion isn't really about what you think are potential problems with a given map, but about whether a given map should feature in this one map-set. Civilization viability and popularity are a couple of key factors to consider, in this regard.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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United States of America IAmSoldieR
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20 Jun 2019, 13:41

I think Manchac and Herald island are two of the best maps.

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