Iroquois Overview

Australia Kawapasaka
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by Kawapasaka »

Riotcoke wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Tomahawks are worse than musk, they have such a shit animation, France have artillery in age 3 which is big. France have better cav, Kayne are pretty crap cav. Iro have a worse Eco. They're not better than france, they're just different.


Sure, I'm just not convinced those advantages are as consequential as a much better skirm/goon. Also having artillery in age 3 is really not as big as it sounds. Outside of the 2 falcs shipment, nice as it is, you very rarely make artillery.
And yeah base Tomahawks aren't as good as musks, but that's a bit of an irrelevant point when iro can triple card them in colonial and have Aenna to counter musks anyway.

You have to send those up cards for the musks to make them good. And Artillery vs Iro is sort of huge seeing as they dont have a great counter in age 3 to it. And saying that Musket riders are much better than goons is silly as they are better granted but the difference isn't huge.


Well, what relevance does musks > tomas really have outside of a drawn out age 2 war where Iro units will be better regardless? Iro don't have a direct counter to artillery, no, but the drawbacks of making artillery are still generally large enough to not make them. A smart Iro will just run their stuff to your resources on the other side of the map when they see you've made falcs. Not to mention the extremely abuseable stealth mode.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by jgals »

scarm wrote:Musket Riders are slightly cheaper (232 vs 257 VS) but have better HP, better ranged resist on EP, only slightly less attack and a higher multiplier vs Artillery (also a higher siege attack for what its worth). They are just slightly more awkward to produce for iro than dragoons are for euro civs due to 100 gold per musket rider.


a lot more than slightly more awkward to produce. No steel traps or amalg, and by fortress economy is getting outclassed in other ways
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by jgals »

Kawapasaka wrote:
jgals wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:I think light cannons can eventually be relied on as anti-infantry, just need a solid upgraded mass of them (but that obviously won't be that quick for Iro to accomplish). It is a pretty crazy unit when you think about it, triple hybrid artillery that is barely countered by culvs at all.


How are you going to have all those cards in your deck in SUP 1v1? And if you really place iro you will see how uneconomical lights really are in a SUP game. They really just do a shit job vs infantry even with the UPS. To get an idea of this try a NR 55 lol. And culv do still beat them


Well, upped just as in the Industrial upgrade that you don't get shadowteched. 8-10 of them behind a tomahawk wall is pretty legit and very difficult for some civs to deal with. Like I said though, this isn't an easy position for iro to get into and they can often be overwhelmed by pure infantry before the composition can really be put together.


well, I cannot actually think of a civ that can't deal with tomahawk canon. prowler, musket rider canon is pretty tough at max pop with population dance and the siege unit pop card. But the only way you are ever going to afford to maintain that is fur trade
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by Kawapasaka »

jgals wrote:well, I cannot actually think of a civ that can't deal with tomahawk canon


Japan?
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

Oh, fur trade card needs a mention imo. OP card
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by gamevideo113 »

Would you ever send it in sup games though? :hmm:
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

gamevideo113 wrote:Would you ever send it in sup games though? :hmm:


If it goes late it can be a game saver on massing musket rider-prowler-light cannon, especially team games but even one v one once in a while. Idk, its in all my decks
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by jgals »

Kawapasaka wrote:
jgals wrote:well, I cannot actually think of a civ that can't deal with tomahawk canon


Japan?


easily, pure yummi doest even need to make arrows. a few musk for anticav
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

Pure yumi beats basically anything Iro can make, especially if stagger mode is used. Light cannons are ver low hp making them easy to target with long range yumi, stagger mode means cannons can only pick off one at a time, yumi do more damage than prowlers, kanya are nearly impossible to mass outside of shipments... i mean mantlets may honestly be the only real option and thats not gonna be remotely optimal outside of 7 (8?) carded ones

Tldr: if you haven't won as iro vs japan by 15 minutes you deserve to lose
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Honestly, I think Iroquois wins in late game against Japan if you have the same eco because you can't really deal with light canons. Yumis in stagger mode probably do decent against full light canon, but Iro will also have tomas and kanyas so you can't get close from them.

Anyway, as you stated, you should win earlier as Iro vs Japan, and if you don't Japan will have a better eco and you won't have time to go industrial.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by Garja »

Nah this is bs. Yumi do fine even vs heavy cannons (im talking about 100 yumi) so defo there isn't a unit advantage for Iro in very late game.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

How about yumi vs kanya/toma/canon?
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

How many kanya can you mass in industrial age competing against a japan eco? Yeah kanya are pretty strong when buffed properly but it never changes their insane wood cost
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:How about yumi vs kanya/toma/canon?

80% yumi, 10% yamabushi, 10% yabusame.
Actually since it's tomahawk you can even lower the yumi count and add more ashi and doesn't change a thing.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That's the eco argument yep.
My point is that if you can damage Japan enough (ie match their eco as Iro), then you'll win in late game. If Japan gets away with a full boom, then you'll lose because he has more eco and will outmass you at one point, not because he has better units, because your late game is better as Iro.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by Garja »

Well Iro right now might be the hardest jap MU so there isn't just one argument.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:How about yumi vs kanya/toma/canon?

80% yumi, 10% yamabushi, 10% yabusame.
Actually since it's tomahawk you can even lower the yumi count and add more ashi and doesn't change a thing.

Then you add skirms and you're fine.
You have the range advantage with light canons, and that's something Japan has to respect, you just need to make sure you have enough units to defend your canons (ie skirms vs yabusame, toma/goons vs nagis and kanyas to black) and you'll win.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

????
Nagi-yumi < light cannon... toma???

Wut
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Well Iro right now might be the hardest jap MU so there isn't just one argument.

I don't know if it's the hardest but yea, Iro being the 2nd best EP civ is a lot for Japan to handle.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

Guess we have our matchup of the month picked out lol
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

dansil92 wrote:????
Nagi-yumi < light cannon... toma???

Wut

nagi-yumi<light canon-toma-kanya yes. Like not enough close.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

dansil92 wrote:Guess we have our matchup of the month picked out lol

No we don't, it's one of the worst Japan MU. MU of the month has to be a controversial (ie close) MU.
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

Goodness gracious have a sense of humour
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

What's the joke? We're arguing about japan vs iro lategame and you randomly throw MU of the month?
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Re: Iroquois Overview

Post by dansil92 »

You're saying iro is better than japan lategame. I highly disagree on account of their trash cav and mediocre artillery. So does garja. Im saying in jest *guess we need to see it played out* because (guess what) we all know japan is gonna lose every game
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