[SKG] WickedCossack vs [NN] Goodspeed

[Riotcoke]

Every game #1 of a series should be a French mirror

Nah boring to watch and cast.

[Kawapasaka]

Every game #1 of a series should be a French mirror

Nah boring to watch and cast.

Fine, fine, make it a Brit mirror then.

[Goodspeed]

Jap mirrors are the best mirrors
Maybe Port

[ListlessSalmon]

A very strange point considering the map is irrelevant in a mirror? He didn't want to play mirrors period, which would have been fine if he'd at all tried to suggest fair non-mirror match ups. ...
One thing you should note is that there are actually very few civs that can reasonably stand up to those 3 on a no TP map. I suggested 2 match ups that I considered even against the 3 (out of 14, mind you) civs that he insisted on playing, both were refused. From my perspective, and I'm sure many would disagree, I was not offered any fair match ups in return. And do note that there is no reason to insist on playing those 3 civs. Why not both play a TP civ? I was stuck trying to find MUs against civs that were heavily favored on the map. ...
Enlighten me about the wide variety of civs that can stand up to India on a no TP herdable map. He certainly didn't, even though he had every opportunity to suggest fair match ups himself. I fell back on mirrors because his suggestions seemed, to me, to be quite obvious attempts to trap me into playing a bad match up. Again, I'm not a fan of mirrors either. And don't forget that I eventually agreed to play a match up that I was almost certainly going to lose for the sake of compromise. This perspective that I was somehow the one being difficult is surprising to say the least.

A desire to play a strong civ for the map seems quite reasonable to me. Imagine he had said "ok well I play India vs anything". That would surely have been a reasonable position and "I'm not playing vs India" would not be, because the civ picking thing is like player A picks a civ then player B picks a civ to counter that then player A either agrees or switches in response. Player B can't just say "nope not playing vs that civ because its the strongest and I don't like that mirror". Now it isn't quite like that because Wicked didn't want to play (at least) one counterpick MU to India, but because of that, his civ pool was wider at three strong civs for the map. That just seems reasonable to me, its a really relative minor deviation from the "India vs anything" position which I think must be an acceptable one. As I'm going from the starting point of "saying I play India (or any one particular civ) vs everything must be alright" rather than "whoever is willing to agree the most MUs out of 196 is being more reasonable".

The position you seemed to take was "nope not doing that instead lets play a TP civ (w.o TPs) mirror that I have played 1000 times before the TP meta and you have probably played like twice because you don't really play mirrors anyway and probably wouldn't play a TP civ on this map so you don't get to use any of your practice isn't this a great very fair idea, why are you being so unreasonable?!?" which seems a bit less fair to say the least.

That's also why a blind pick would have seemed very fair to me, it wasn't actually a coinflip, because under the assumption (again we don't know because the mirrors stuff kinda killed the possibility of exploration) he was willing to play those civs vs most civs, and you only seemed to want to play one civ vs each of them, or to play a weak civ vs a weak civ so hes substantially more likely to end up with a positive result.

FWIW I don't seem to have be nearly alone in this perspective my (concededly biased) interpretation of the chat at the time was it basically having the same view in general- plus Miggo explicitly said stated he had the same perspective earlier in this thread.

Why not play India vs Jap? Too fair?

My understanding is that on most "normal" maps at a high level (i.e. with competent defense) lots of people consider this quite Japan favoured. See: This thread, which has Miggo saying he thinks it hopeless and Diarouga saying Japan wins, maybe they aren't correct but it doesn't seem ridiculous for someone to share Miggo's view on it.
Just a slightly irrelevant aside because I'm slightly concerned that this post and the prior could be plausibly read in a kind of "goodspeed is the worst!!!" kinda of way, I don't think that at all and am very thankful for everything you've contributed to the community (time as patch boss, the goodspeed guides etc. etc.)
I just think you're mistaken about this frankly rather unimportant issue- I do basically agree that the rules are slightly awkward as they do reward being difficult, I just don't think Wicked was being more difficult here. I'm much more content with blind pick as a potential out though, so I guess my problem is that the "don't be unreasonable" part of the tournament rules (1.11) is usually going to be extremely difficult to apply and maybe actually allowing disagreeable players to force a blind pick would be better.

The point you raised at some point prior about putting G1 on a standard TP map to allow these shenanigans to occur where there are more viable civs seems very sensible though.

Jap mirrors are the best mirrors

This also seems correct.

[Goodspeed]

A desire to play a strong civ for the map seems quite reasonable to me. Imagine he had said "ok well I play India vs anything". That would surely have been a reasonable position and "I'm not playing vs India" would not be, because the civ picking thing is like player A picks a civ then player B picks a civ to counter that then player A either agrees or switches in response. Player B can't just say "nope not playing vs that civ because its the strongest and I don't like that mirror". Now it isn't quite like that because Wicked didn't want to play (at least) one counterpick MU to India, but because of that, his civ pool was wider at three strong civs for the map. That just seems reasonable to me, its a really relative minor deviation from the "India vs anything" position which I think must be an acceptable one. As I'm going from the starting point of "saying I play India (or any one particular civ) vs everything must be alright" rather than "whoever is willing to agree the most MUs out of 196 is being more reasonable".

I'm not sure what your point is here since none of this happened. Of course if he'd said "I'll play India against anything" we would've been done in about 10 seconds. And I never said I didn't want to play against India? The only MU he suggested where he was India was my Brit and I have very little doubt about how shitty of a MU that is for Brit on that map.

The position you seemed to take was "nope not doing that instead lets play a TP civ (w.o TPs) mirror that I have played 1000 times before the TP meta and you have probably played like twice because you don't really play mirrors anyway and probably wouldn't play a TP civ on this map so you don't get to use any of your practice isn't this a great very fair idea, why are you being so unreasonable?!?" which seems a bit less fair to say the least.

Again, I fell back on mirrors because I was seeing no reasonable MU suggestions from him. If he thinks India Jap is Jap favored, why not offer it the other way around? Same goes for Russia Sioux. I would've played either. How is it fair to insist on playing the strongest civs on the map and expect me to play TP civs?

You're actually wrong about how many mirrors I've played. I've always disliked them with a passion and the only ones I've played a lot are French and Jap mirrors, during the periods when those civs were OP (ASFP and the 2008 WCG era respectively).

That's also why a blind pick would have seemed very fair to me,

How anyone would ever think BP is fair is beyond me. Maybe you underestimate how hard civs counter each other, especially on that kind of map.

FWIW I don't seem to have be nearly alone in this perspective my (concededly biased) interpretation of the chat at the time was it basically having the same view in general- plus Miggo explicitly said stated he had the same perspective earlier in this thread.

I don't blame you for seeing it this way. From a distance I can see why people would be annoyed by my apparent insistence on a mirror, because from a viewer perspective (and, frankly, a player perspective) it's boring. But without intricate knowledge of counter civs you can't possibly form an opinion on who was being more fair in their suggestions. Note I never insisted on mirrors, I was simply suggesting fair match ups, which mirrors inherently are, and asked him to suggest a mirror when it was obvious (to me) that he was only going to suggest match ups that were good for him otherwise. Don't forget there were time constraints; we already started an hour late, and I had to work the next day. WC also didn't want to start too late, ede was getting impatient, etc. I'm sure we would've had a lot more match ups to go through and I have no doubt we would've agreed in the end but why are we wasting time suggesting Dutch vs TP civs on a no TP map when we could be agreeing on an inherently fair mirror match up?

[Cometk]

I don’t know what the alternative is honestly. Until I see something as feasible and simple as a blind pick, I’m not inclined to change anything for something that is largely a non-issue.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Easy solution : remove shitty maps.
No more no TP shit
#BringBackBalancedMaps

[Riotcoke]

Honestly non tp is just shit

[edeholland]

Kamchatka as first map every series and you're done. German mirrors for life.

[Goodspeed]

I don’t know what the alternative is honestly. Until I see something as feasible and simple as a blind pick, I’m not inclined to change anything for something that is largely a non-issue.

As others have mentioned, always make sure the first map is a standard TP map so that there are many more viable match ups to choose from. Why not, right?

[Hazza54321]

Balancing the game around tp maps and not expecting non tp to be shit LUL

[Goodspeed]

The fact that there are less civs to choose from is only a problem in this particular context, it doesn't make the entire map type "shit". But yeah, the shipment mechanic is one of AoE3s biggest strengths, anything that adds XP is bound to improve the game and the other way around. Regardless, you don't need to change the amount of no TP maps in the pool. Just make sure the first map allows for a wide variety of match ups.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Having a TP map as the first map was our policy at some point for the reasons outlined in this thread. It probably wasn't taken into consideration when creating this map pool, but we'll keep a closer eye on it in the future.

[amiggo1999]

why sign up on a tourney when you don't intend to practice at all, but then be impossible to negotiate with on a MU?

I really don't think I was being impossible at all, rather the opposite. What makes you think I was being impossible?
As for why I signed up, I liked the league format. Thought it sounded fun. Didn't expect to get drafted though

turns out you we're right

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea Wicked dodging all the MUs again lol.

[Challenger_Marco]

WickedShit.