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Turkey HUMMAN
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28 Jul 2019, 21:38

dansil92 wrote:The trouble with fixed crates is you pick between giving say... Germany 100 or 200 wood every time. Basically cementing which builds you do every time making another aoe2 clone of perfectly rigid builds

You can still have different starts if maps have unique fixed starts.
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

29 Jul 2019, 16:01

007Salt wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Try pressing your alt key.

I knew that lol.. the only problem is the alt key doesn't also tell you what the techs do
Correct – for to read that, you have to make the effort to scroll over the icons that appear while you hold alt.

It can be tricky!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
Bhutan jgals
Lancer
Posts: 554
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Location: USA

29 Jul 2019, 16:07

ZAPOTEC NEED A SPEED BUFF...WHY THE FUK YOU THINK THEY CALLED LIGHTNING WARRIOR IF THEY SLOW AF????
United States of America 007Salt
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29 Jul 2019, 16:10

zoom wrote:
007Salt wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I knew that lol.. the only problem is the alt key doesn't also tell you what the techs do
Correct – for to read that, you have to make the effort to scroll over the icons that appear while you hold alt.

It can be tricky!

oh I never looked at it that carefully... interesting thanks
No Flag DracoWolfgand
Skirmisher
Posts: 116

08 Aug 2019, 21:25

Back after a really long break...

Actually, I personally find the Carib are not that bad. Depending on the strategy you use, that is. Their very high attack for their age, as well as the fact the "Carib Ambush Party" lets then be trained by your hero directly on the battlefield, and their decent bulk for a light iinfantry unit, makes then solid early raiders. Civilizations like the Sioux and the Aztecs, for a example( Who like charging with their hero and a few troups to lead raids to begin with ) can make use of the Carib Ambush Party to make a annoiyng raid even more... Well, annoiyng.

However, of course, the Carib Blowgunners are completely outclassed by the Skirmisher, who has almost as much attack and-Most importantly for such a unit-Much more range. This is, however, a recurring problem in native units: Most of then are designed to be good on the early game, to help you with brief skirmishes, but they arent something you build a army around. That is probably part of the problem with civilizations such as the Mapuche... As their heavy infantry units are not that good even in the early game to begin with, being easily outclassed by the very common Musketeer.
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Canada dansil92
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08 Aug 2019, 23:52

But of course the carib can grant a bonus vs vills for bow riders and cetan are bad enough that carib look pretty decent

Tupi is one that hasnt been mentioned much, and that unit is pretty powerful from the few times ive used it
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Australia Peachrocks
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09 Aug 2019, 09:00

Carib have 10 range. It’s really not ideal on ranged infantry which wants to not get too close. Even in the early game they don’t work too well because they get out ranged and shot to pieces by their counterparts. Cetan might be mediocre but at least 16 range is somewhat serviceable. The tech is good for Bow Riders sure but not much else.

Tupi aren’t bad but they have low resistance and really low HP which again means they get shot to bits by their counterparts. Very high damage and 18 range though which makes them the best of the native archers. Changing their resistance and the animal lore tech might be the only thing they need. Thing I personally like about them is their Forest Burning Tech which makes buildings 20% cheaper. The Cree have a similar tech for 25% but it’s a wood cost and it takes an extremely long time to research. The Tupi one is much quicker.
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Germany Scroogie
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09 Aug 2019, 11:02

I think buffing natives is a great idea, and would increase variety and viable options decently. How about reducing the Nat-TP (NTP) cost to sth like 100w? That makes it a lot more affordable and comparable to the TP, which is basically a (slightly weaker) exposed bank for a third of the cost, so why shouldnt the NTP be a slightly weaker, exposed Rax+Arsenal, for a third of the cost?
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
Australia Peachrocks
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ESO: Peachrocks

09 Aug 2019, 13:48

@Scroogie I'm not sure the two costs can be separated though it might be possible to refund some of the cost even in crate form upon completion. Even so, there's a lot of other options we can explore first. On the most part natives are mediocre for three reasons. There are some exceptions but outside of that...

1. The units are simply inferior. If anyone's read most of my posts or what not on the thread you'd know this and for a lot of the units why. Most of the ranged units lack range or are heavy infantry units with worse stats per cost than pikeman and Halberdiers.

2. The build limits are extremely restrictive. You get roughly 15-20 pop worth of units per TP but remember these units have their own upgrades and therefore you can't rely on them long term otherwise you end up working at a loss. Also unlike many units that civs use in their standard build orders, you can't ship them either outside of the native treaties card which is really only viable in age 2. IF there's only one available TP to you because the other one is blocked by your opponents starting TC it simply is not worth bothering.

3. You need map control to use them and your opponent knows you have them. On top of deviating or having a custom build order to accommodate a given native type you need map control in order to keep it.

TPs are actually better than banks per cost with stage coach IRC with the cost of course being not choosing where it goes outside the slots. I ran those numbers years ago though so don't quote me.
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India rsy
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09 Aug 2019, 15:51

If we hid the native trade post symbol, surprise nat rushes might actually be a decent option
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United States of America n0el
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09 Aug 2019, 15:57

rsy wrote:If we hid the native trade post symbol, surprise nat rushes might actually be a decent option

I think this and increasing the build limit are two common sense options to start with.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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09 Aug 2019, 16:00

n0el wrote:
rsy wrote:If we hid the native trade post symbol, surprise nat rushes might actually be a decent option

I think this and increasing the build limit are two common sense options to start with.

I don't think increasing build limit is a sage decision, their limit is what makes them unable to be relied on, which as rouga said earlier isn't the best idea. Some natives do need a buff to the number you can make though namely the goon type natives have something small like an 8 build limit.
You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?"
Australia Peachrocks
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09 Aug 2019, 21:15

Riotcoke wrote:
n0el wrote:
rsy wrote:If we hid the native trade post symbol, surprise nat rushes might actually be a decent option

I think this and increasing the build limit are two common sense options to start with.

I don't think increasing build limit is a sage decision, their limit is what makes them unable to be relied on, which as rouga said earlier isn't the best idea. Some natives do need a buff to the number you can make though namely the goon type natives have something small like an 8 build limit.


You mean aside the fact they need map control? Unlike barracks or stable upgrades, cards or anything you invest in them is lost the moment you lose the TP/s until you regain them. Why would you invest in their unit upgrades when you can just invest in normal things? If they change a few match ups players should know that going in and make an effort to deny the TPs rather than just ignore a feature of the map.

Also if you can't rely on them in any capacity they'll remain unused.

I would raise the limit to average of 24 pop for starters, around a 30-50% increase on average. Apache would get 12 instead of 8. Hardly breaking the bank. Seriously their number one flaw no matter what we do will remain. You need the post in order to use them and these are usually not in good defensive locations and even if one post is, they are getting 24 'free' pop worth of units that are tied to a different upgrade system to everything else which you need to invest in, which for elite upgrades costs only a little less than 1 and a half houses on its own.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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17 Aug 2019, 12:01

I was looking at the AS fanpatch from 2010 which deals with natives in far more detail than EP and one change I found interesting was to give a free native embassy travois, basically a tax for native units, upon building a native tp. This would make it so you don't have the negative of where nat posts are.
You have the charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank clerk. And the question that I want to ask, that we're all going to ask, is "Who are you?"
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France Rikikipu
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17 Aug 2019, 23:02

I think removing the native icon is a good idea indeed, seems that everyone agrees on it.
I'm not sure the build limit is a problem though. When have you reached the build limit with nats for the last time. Seems to me that their units are most of the time garbage and also for 200w investment you just get one unit type composition (let's say bow) compared to a barrack where you get (2 units composition: anti-inf and anti-cav). So whether you got bow only composition and you get easily caught by cav or you got useless pikes that are even more useless because of native stats. I think the limit is fine, your main army shouldn't be full native I feel.
Australia wardyb1
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07 Oct 2019, 04:49

Has it ever been considered that natives should maybe get automatically upped upon aging? Aka not requiring the tech to make them age 3 or 4 equivalent but instead just automatically being veteran or guard. I'm just thinking it might make them a bit more relevant in the mid game. We already see nat rushes, while uncommon can sometimes be effective, and we also sometimes see nats come out in the late game once economies have peaked and armies are at full pop.
However I think the change would make them a nice possible pickup for age 3 play or early age 4 play where you could actually get a decent unit without having to invest into the tp, then the age 3 up, and then possibly the age 4 tech. Seems like a huge investment to get 12 units out. Might be a nicer solution to natives as a whole than trying to mix and match stats, and resource costs of each unit.
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New Zealand zoom
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07 Oct 2019, 20:12

Riotcoke wrote:I was looking at the AS fanpatch from 2010 which deals with natives in far more detail than EP and one change I found interesting was to give a free native embassy travois, basically a tax for native units, upon building a native tp. This would make it so you don't have the negative of where nat posts are.
Although I forget who did, earlier this year, someone (maybe Peachrocks) made the point to me, that this has the undesirable effect of making the actual building completely unviable. That is to say, players would never consider building a Native Embassy, because they would always get two for free.

Halving cost from 100w to 50w is an option. I think allowing TAD civilizations to build Native Embassies is a good starting point, regardless.

As for removing the icons of player TPs from the UI, I think this is a good idea, if it's possible to do for Native TPs only. If the Golden Pavilion is anything to go by, removing regular TP icons isn't technically possible (without also removing the quick-selection icons, located just above the mini-map). I'll ask someone competent to look into that.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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New Zealand zoom
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07 Oct 2019, 20:14

wardyb1 wrote:Has it ever been considered that natives should maybe get automatically upped upon aging? Aka not requiring the tech to make them age 3 or 4 equivalent but instead just automatically being veteran or guard. I'm just thinking it might make them a bit more relevant in the mid game. We already see nat rushes, while uncommon can sometimes be effective, and we also sometimes see nats come out in the late game once economies have peaked and armies are at full pop.
However I think the change would make them a nice possible pickup for age 3 play or early age 4 play where you could actually get a decent unit without having to invest into the tp, then the age 3 up, and then possibly the age 4 tech. Seems like a huge investment to get 12 units out. Might be a nicer solution to natives as a whole than trying to mix and match stats, and resource costs of each unit.
I can't remember seeing this idea. I think you're onto something, but again maybe halving (or outright removing) improvement cost is less intrusive than removing every single technology.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1871

07 Oct 2019, 21:14

Amsel_ wrote:Thank you for making this thread. I've always thought natives were too underwhelming in AoE3. Since the ESOC Patch doesn't want to make major changes to the game, I can only recommend.

-Tweaking unit cost and strength.
-Revealing the whole map, since the natives probably know the local area pretty well.
-Big buttons that allow you to get a batch of units at a discounted price; one for age 2, 3, and 4.

If we were talking about major changes then some ideas are.

-Adding a "call village militia" feature that essentially works as a free minutemen. You can use it every 3-4 minutes. This would make nats useful for map control.
-Building a native TP gets you a unique explorer unit from that tribe. He's immortal like a regular explorer, but can be killed if the TP was destroyed.
-A random gift every 5 minutes. It could be resources, units, villagers, or temporary buffs to stuff like damage or gather rate.
-An extra row of shipments in the home city menu, but they're shipments from that native tribe.



These are great ideas, I have been watching a lot of streams lately and I don't think I can really say I have seen natives used. But they should be as important as trade post. And trade post provide a constant income which makes them very worth while.

I think an increased LOS would be helpful more so than reveal map, that would just be kind of OP to find treasures etc...
Also maybe a buff to the nat cards civs already have, so maybe the cheaper card makes them even cheaper.
Big buttons and HC cards awesome idea.
Village militia has some merits too to add to the value like a TP increases in value over time.
I think the explorer idea is cool for some tribes like a mansabar unit. sort of like the nookta chief

allow Asian civs to build embassy?
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
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Location: Midwest best west

09 Oct 2019, 01:40

howlingwolfpaw wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:Thank you for making this thread. I've always thought natives were too underwhelming in AoE3. Since the ESOC Patch doesn't want to make major changes to the game, I can only recommend.

-Tweaking unit cost and strength.
-Revealing the whole map, since the natives probably know the local area pretty well.
-Big buttons that allow you to get a batch of units at a discounted price; one for age 2, 3, and 4.

If we were talking about major changes then some ideas are.

-Adding a "call village militia" feature that essentially works as a free minutemen. You can use it every 3-4 minutes. This would make nats useful for map control.
-Building a native TP gets you a unique explorer unit from that tribe. He's immortal like a regular explorer, but can be killed if the TP was destroyed.
-A random gift every 5 minutes. It could be resources, units, villagers, or temporary buffs to stuff like damage or gather rate.
-An extra row of shipments in the home city menu, but they're shipments from that native tribe.



These are great ideas, I have been watching a lot of streams lately and I don't think I can really say I have seen natives used. But they should be as important as trade post. And trade post provide a constant income which makes them very worth while.

I think an increased LOS would be helpful more so than reveal map, that would just be kind of OP to find treasures etc...
Also maybe a buff to the nat cards civs already have, so maybe the cheaper card makes them even cheaper.
Big buttons and HC cards awesome idea.
Village militia has some merits too to add to the value like a TP increases in value over time.
I think the explorer idea is cool for some tribes like a mansabar unit. sort of like the nookta chief

allow Asian civs to build embassy?

Yes, native trade posts increasing LOS to find treasures will be OP, instead of, you know, using explorer build time to just scout for treasures.

#sphericaldenseearthersrekkingdumboswithlogicTM
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1871

09 Oct 2019, 01:54

yeah that's why I think just an increased LOS to make a strategic post is more viable than a reveal map. A reveal map would be pretty cheap. But adding a few LOS points wont ruin the game but also provide more incentive to build a post and then subsequently train units and get techs, being a passive ability similar to how trade post operate.
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
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Location: Midwest best west

09 Oct 2019, 04:28

Considering Raphael considers LOS a most underrated passive, then I can't disagree!
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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Canada dansil92
Lancer
Posts: 605
ESO: dansil92

09 Oct 2019, 05:12

if natives shadowteched, that might make them more reasonable to use, certainly would open up a few doors at least. i don't think imperial should shadowtech though... then a few cards would have to be reworked, but they would be like consulate units (intervention op) and could fit into some more fortress oriented play without being a must have. I know I would love to have some upgraded Rattan in my fortress composition for essentially any civ, even some cherokee or the timing based Huron Mantlet tech. Its a waste to get 15 colonial mantets in industrial, but if i knew they were gonna be industrial age stronk and tank some skirm fire, etc...
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