Worst matchup in the game

[Kawapasaka]

Not sure if there's been a thread on this before, couldn't find one at least. Curious to hear everyone's opinions: What do you think is the most one-sided, hopeless civ matchup in the game, and why?

[dansil92]

Not sure if there's been a thread on this before, couldn't find one at least. Curious to hear everyone's opinions: What do you think is the most one-sided, hopeless matchup in the game, and why?

RE or EP?

Spain vs china on a 3 tp livestock map is my bet on current ep

Otto v dutch on RE imo

Maybe iro v Sioux? Idk i think otto / dutch is still worse

[Kawapasaka]

Not sure if there's been a thread on this before, couldn't find one at least. Curious to hear everyone's opinions: What do you think is the most one-sided, hopeless matchup in the game, and why?

RE or EP?

Spain vs china on a 3 tp livestock map is my bet on current ep

Otto v dutch on RE imo

Maybe iro v Sioux? Idk i think otto / dutch is still worse

Yeah, EP, otherwise I think it would just be a ton of Otto-[civ] and Iro-[civ]

Map is important too yeah, should specify that I guess.

[deleted_user]

I want to say Spain vs Dutch, bad for Dutch

[deleted_user0]

I want to say Spain vs Dutch, bad for Dutch

Its only cause most of the people make 5 banks they can't defend instead of max 3 and actually hold the push....

[pérez]

i would say, azzy vs sioux in safe tp map, just no way to win as azzy.

[SoldieR]

Hmm.. really?

[Mitoe]

Piroshiki vs H2O was always unwinnable for H2O

[deleted_user]

Im having a difficult time coming up with answers (on EP and EP maps) because traditionally "worst MU" means the game is easily lost before it can become outplay-able at equal skill. Tons of hunts and CM and stagecoach maps (and aggro jap) and occasionally 70w boats and more occasionally lots of walls means defenders can defend and aggressors can scale until there is a point either player can outplay, even if disadvantaged. It really becomes map and card dependent, and what the statuses of the natural resources are.

There are lots of "NR 10" EP memes but it adds subtly/finesse to the game, less brute force.

Chess AIs prefer positions with the most possible legal moves.

[Lukas_L99]

Otto-Sioux maybe, if Sioux goes for the right build and microes well.

[Kawapasaka]

I'm feeling sioux-china at the moment, personally. Don't even think trying to abuse walls would be useful. Maybe keshiks hold the secrets

[deleted_user]

I'm feeling sioux-china at the moment, personally. Don't even think trying to abuse walls would be useful. Maybe keshiks hold the secrets

Possibly, but if China can hold out until both Manchus and repelling volley are in, they stand a chance. Sioux's big engagement is very dependent on open land. China can maybe even semi FI on a livestock map abusing that fact. But Sioux can baby dance with map. But if Sioux baby dances, they could be vulnerable.

Let's face it: on EP there may be favorable and unfavorable MUs, but it's so close that the map plays such a huge part in it. MUs aren't so imbalanced that counter strats can't be executed, and that's very important. An unfavorable MU still requires the favored civilization to adapt accordingly to their opponent, and we stray further from MU and more into player experience/ability/unknown factors (like treasuring, scouting).

[Kawapasaka]

I'm feeling sioux-china at the moment, personally. Don't even think trying to abuse walls would be useful. Maybe keshiks hold the secrets

Possibly, but if China can hold out until both Manchus and repelling volley are in, they stand a chance. Sioux's big engagement is very dependent on open land. China can maybe even semi FI on a livestock map abusing that fact. But Sioux can baby dance with map. But if Sioux baby dances, they could be vulnerable.

Let's face it: on EP there may be favorable and unfavorable MUs, but it's so close that the map plays such a huge part in it. MUs aren't so imbalanced that counter strats can't be executed, and that's very important. An unfavorable MU still requires the favored civilization to adapt accordingly to their opponent, and we stray further from MU and more into player experience/ability/unknown factors (like treasuring, scouting).

Very true, in hindsight "hopeless" is a bit dramatic of a term to describe something that is realistically, say, 35-65 at the worst. Shouldn't be making too many excuses for losses.

[deleted_user]

That's the shtick - nearly every game I lose I know Kaiser or Mitoe or Hazza or someone better could have won it, or me if I was given a do-over.

While I love to complain, it irks me when people complain.

Hmmm, maybe I should apply this to my personal life...

[Rikikipu]

On RE, dutch vs brit is really complicated for dutch I feel

[flontier]

German spain

[Hazza54321]

Port vs iro , port vs china , port vs spain, spain vs india , spain vs german, jap vs aztec, aztec vs sioux

[jesus3]

Jap vs Spain is a huge load of crap imo

[Kawapasaka]

Jap vs Spain is a huge load of crap imo

For whom?

[Hazza54321]

I always thought that MU as even

[ShinkuroYukinari]

Portugal vs anything on RE

[jesus3]

Jap vs Spain is a huge load of crap imo

For whom?

I've gotten used to Jap getting steamrolled if Spain strikes early enough, but I could be mistaken

[princeofcarthage]

Portugal vs anything on RE

@Aizamk

[Astaroth]

Jap vs Spain is a huge load of crap imo

For whom?

I've gotten used to Jap getting steamrolled if Spain strikes early enough, but I could be mistaken

I feel Japan can win with a very specific build: age 2 double rax ashi in base defense, like 600w 4v 600g CM or 5 ashi or daimyo. All buildings behind TC if possible, wall a bit to delay. Upgrade your vills right before the fight. Focus TC on falcs.

Once he is almost underneath your TC, pull all vills to tank, call all MM, flank with ashi and snare with clubs, GG.

If he doesn't push and just booms or masses, follow him asap into ashi Nagi FA.

[jesus3]

Well, yes. A strong musk mass with few cav and villager-pull if necessary is the go-to strat vs Spain with any civ when in doubt tbh. My point is that Jap is fairly slow early on and Spain can push pretty fast with falconets guarded by rods/pikes and hus. I'm not even sure that jap even gets all the shipments you've listed before dying. It's at least a mirror of my struggles as Jap vs Spain. In theory, you know what to do. In reality, Spain strikes way too early