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Germany Scroogie
Skirmisher
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GameRanger ID: 10056919

30 Nov 2019, 11:43

I have 3 questions about French:
1. Why did the nat get snare removed? All you have to do is shoot him dead he only has 120hp, and France getting better age1 is basically their civ bonus. Now the nat is a lot less useful.
2. Why did goons get nerfed to 0.2 RR?
3. Why where these two nerfs enough to bring France down from Top-Tier (late 2015-2016) to mediocre Tier?
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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30 Nov 2019, 11:48

1. Nat snare was removed because it gives the player with the native scout a disproportional advantage in age 1. France obviously starts with a scout, but you can also find a scout from treasures. Theoretically, you can even train or ship them, but no one does this in competitive games. Nat snare allows you to shoot the other explorer and effectively kill it in most games. This can deny a trading post and scouting information in the early game. Essentially the reasoning is the same as the upcoming converted treasure guardian nerf. We've seen in the current TWC tournament how broken this can be.

2. Dragoons were simply too dominant and too hard to kill. This was especially a problem in team games. Since dragoons are extremely mobile, it was too hard for skirmishers to hunt them down and kill them with 30% ranged resist.

3. Balance fluctuates a lot. India is a perfect example of this. India is a civ that is either a top civ or a garbage civ depending on who and when you ask. You can see this in Iroquois too. At the beginning of 2019, a poll showed that Iroquois was rated the 2nd worst civ after Spain. This was polled on the same version that we're currently playing the TWC tournament on. It's evidently clear now that Iroquois is the 2nd best if not the best civilization. To answer your question, there is no clear change that caused France to fall off. Meta changes and other balance changes changed their place in the game. France is still a very solid civilization and there are no matchups they clearly win or lose as of now. One thing to mention is that France got another slight nerf: the CDB cost was changed from 120f to 125f.
Australia Kawapasaka
Lancer
Posts: 585
Location: Wales (new, south)

30 Nov 2019, 11:52

1. Nat snare is guaranteed as it has more speed than most other explorers. So if it's far enough from your opponent's base it basically guarantees a kill on your opponents explorer. By the same token I think it's dumb that the Sioux explorer snares but oh well that's a different story.
2. Goons are an unfair unit.
3. France is a monster civ ask @Mitoe
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Germany Scroogie
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30 Nov 2019, 11:54

Mr_Bramboy wrote:One thing to mention is that France got another slight nerf: the CDB cost was changed from 120f to 125f.

Thanks for your explanation!
But this does get reverted in Ep7 doesnt it?

I havent watched anything from the TWC Classics yet, what is the guardian nerf you're talking about?
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
Austria Jerimuno
Lancer
Posts: 536
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GameRanger ID: 9241516

30 Nov 2019, 12:51

Kawapasaka wrote:2. Goons are an unfair unit.

This shows how much PR china is adding to skirmisher tbh lol
Australia Kawapasaka
Lancer
Posts: 585
Location: Wales (new, south)

30 Nov 2019, 12:54

Jerimuno wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:2. Goons are an unfair unit.

This shows how much PR china is adding to skirmisher tbh lol


About 25, give or take.
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Armenia Sargsyan
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30 Nov 2019, 13:11

ranged hand cav are an unfair unit
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Germany Scroogie
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30 Nov 2019, 14:11

I demand my curassiers have access to a ranged melee tech when i play china.
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
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Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1156
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

30 Nov 2019, 18:56

Mr_Bramboy wrote:1. Nat snare was removed because it gives the player with the native scout a disproportional advantage in age 1. France obviously starts with a scout, but you can also find a scout from treasures. Theoretically, you can even train or ship them, but no one does this in competitive games. Nat snare allows you to shoot the other explorer and effectively kill it in most games. This can deny a trading post and scouting information in the early game. Essentially the reasoning is the same as the upcoming converted treasure guardian nerf. We've seen in the current TWC tournament how broken this can be.

2. Dragoons were simply too dominant and too hard to kill. This was especially a problem in team games. Since dragoons are extremely mobile, it was too hard for skirmishers to hunt them down and kill them with 30% ranged resist.

3. Balance fluctuates a lot. India is a perfect example of this. India is a civ that is either a top civ or a garbage civ depending on who and when you ask. You can see this in Iroquois too. At the beginning of 2019, a poll showed that Iroquois was rated the 2nd worst civ after Spain. This was polled on the same version that we're currently playing the TWC tournament on. It's evidently clear now that Iroquois is the 2nd best if not the best civilization. To answer your question, there is no clear change that caused France to fall off. Meta changes and other balance changes changed their place in the game. France is still a very solid civilization and there are no matchups they clearly win or lose as of now. One thing to mention is that France got another slight nerf: the CDB cost was changed from 120f to 125f.


Good analysis except than India has never been garbage tier. :)
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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30 Nov 2019, 18:57

yurashic wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:1. Nat snare was removed because it gives the player with the native scout a disproportional advantage in age 1. France obviously starts with a scout, but you can also find a scout from treasures. Theoretically, you can even train or ship them, but no one does this in competitive games. Nat snare allows you to shoot the other explorer and effectively kill it in most games. This can deny a trading post and scouting information in the early game. Essentially the reasoning is the same as the upcoming converted treasure guardian nerf. We've seen in the current TWC tournament how broken this can be.

2. Dragoons were simply too dominant and too hard to kill. This was especially a problem in team games. Since dragoons are extremely mobile, it was too hard for skirmishers to hunt them down and kill them with 30% ranged resist.

3. Balance fluctuates a lot. India is a perfect example of this. India is a civ that is either a top civ or a garbage civ depending on who and when you ask. You can see this in Iroquois too. At the beginning of 2019, a poll showed that Iroquois was rated the 2nd worst civ after Spain. This was polled on the same version that we're currently playing the TWC tournament on. It's evidently clear now that Iroquois is the 2nd best if not the best civilization. To answer your question, there is no clear change that caused France to fall off. Meta changes and other balance changes changed their place in the game. France is still a very solid civilization and there are no matchups they clearly win or lose as of now. One thing to mention is that France got another slight nerf: the CDB cost was changed from 120f to 125f.


Good analysis except than India has never been garbage tier. :)

I beg to differ. India was considered one of the weakest civilizations on the very first versions of EP. I don't have the evidence to back this claim up at the moment but I remember it well.

Edit: Here's one example I could find: in November 2016, India was considered the 11th best (i.e 3rd worst) civ. IIRC they had received quite a few nerfs at that point.
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Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1156
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

30 Nov 2019, 19:01

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
yurashic wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:1. Nat snare was removed because it gives the player with the native scout a disproportional advantage in age 1. France obviously starts with a scout, but you can also find a scout from treasures. Theoretically, you can even train or ship them, but no one does this in competitive games. Nat snare allows you to shoot the other explorer and effectively kill it in most games. This can deny a trading post and scouting information in the early game. Essentially the reasoning is the same as the upcoming converted treasure guardian nerf. We've seen in the current TWC tournament how broken this can be.

2. Dragoons were simply too dominant and too hard to kill. This was especially a problem in team games. Since dragoons are extremely mobile, it was too hard for skirmishers to hunt them down and kill them with 30% ranged resist.

3. Balance fluctuates a lot. India is a perfect example of this. India is a civ that is either a top civ or a garbage civ depending on who and when you ask. You can see this in Iroquois too. At the beginning of 2019, a poll showed that Iroquois was rated the 2nd worst civ after Spain. This was polled on the same version that we're currently playing the TWC tournament on. It's evidently clear now that Iroquois is the 2nd best if not the best civilization. To answer your question, there is no clear change that caused France to fall off. Meta changes and other balance changes changed their place in the game. France is still a very solid civilization and there are no matchups they clearly win or lose as of now. One thing to mention is that France got another slight nerf: the CDB cost was changed from 120f to 125f.


Good analysis except than India has never been garbage tier. :)

I beg to differ. India was considered one of the weakest civilizations on the very first versions of EP. I don't have the evidence to back this claim up at the moment but I remember it well.


I don't know who considered it weak back then, it was long before the sepoy nerf and you would see the slow sepoy rush all the time. It wasn't played like nowadays with the age ups and the memefire, but that is strictly because of the hp nerf.

I remember you would see it in saturday smackdown all the time.
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Canada Mitoe
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30 Nov 2019, 19:46

Jerimuno wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:2. Goons are an unfair unit.

This shows how much PR china is adding to skirmisher tbh lol

Why? Goons are a very strong unit. Before the nerf you could win many games going almost only goon.
Austria Jerimuno
Lancer
Posts: 536
ESO: Jerimuno
GameRanger ID: 9241516

01 Dec 2019, 10:54

Read his signature, that's why :P
France chronique
Dragoon
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ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

01 Dec 2019, 11:51

Why the musket rider are not nerfed like the regular goon?
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Canada Mitoe
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01 Dec 2019, 12:43

chronique wrote:Why the musket rider are not nerfed like the regular goon?

Because at the time of the goon nerf Iro was not very good
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 240
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

01 Dec 2019, 13:32

And currently why not :p
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
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01 Dec 2019, 13:37

chronique wrote:And currently why not :p

I think they're nerfed.
France chronique
Dragoon
Posts: 240
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

01 Dec 2019, 14:07

I need to rerere read the patch not lol.

edit: musket rider receive no nerf
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France [Armag] diarouga
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ESO: diarouga
Location: France

01 Dec 2019, 15:32

chronique wrote:I need to rerere read the patch not lol.

edit: musket rider receive no nerf

Yea, too many changes, thus it's impossible to know what was reverted and what was not.
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
ESOC Media Team
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01 Dec 2019, 16:37

Not all changes can be found in the patch notes either. For example, the 140f to 130f nerf - which for the record is totally game-changing - is nowhere to be found.

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