Dutch Discussion Thread

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Italy gamevideo113
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Jotunir wrote: You are using false equivalence between villagers and bank gold ratios to justify your flawed reasoning. I won't discuss anymore with you, you are not worth my time.
You got me, I'll admit my faults: I am guilty of thinking about the desing and balance of a game with the mentality of a player, instead of the mentality of a philosopher.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

gamevideo113 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
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its not exlusively skirmisher its all units slow goons and cav sucks. its also a colonial shipment not an age 1 shipment so the 2 banks is justified. sure it has other benefits but the trade off just isnt fun. some of you nerds seem too obsessed with balance to get a fun game
+2 Banks but every bank also has a 3-4 population cost? Could be an idea i guess
We all know you want to make banks = villagers ;)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

gamevideo113 wrote:
Jotunir wrote: You are using false equivalence between villagers and bank gold ratios to justify your flawed reasoning. I won't discuss anymore with you, you are not worth my time.
You got me, I'll admit my faults: I am guilty of thinking about the desing and balance of a game with the mentality of a player, instead of the mentality of a philosopher.
So basically you are saying that the mentality of the average player is irrational?
That's hardly news :lol:
I am a player too, and I think that reworking that card so that it gives a 10% increase and moving it to the fortress age sounds reasonable.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

good luck with that
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

Thank you for your kind words. I highly appreciate your support.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

I think dutch cards in age 1 that increases bank build limit should be removed. You have to start with 4 bank limit in discovery and every age up should give +1 bank limit. This will give us total 12 banks in total including coffe trade and excessive taxation. Which is same bank eco in nilla ( bcz excessive texation on nilla gives +50% bank gather rate , so 8 x 0.5 = 4, 12 bank equivalent ). I think it is okay bcz dutch late game eco is somewhat weak.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by duckzilla »

aqwer wrote:I think dutch cards in age 1 that increases bank build limit should be removed. You have to start with 4 bank limit in discovery and every age up should give +1 bank limit. This will give us total 12 banks in total including coffe trade and excessive taxation. Which is same bank eco in nilla ( bcz excessive texation on nilla gives +50% bank gather rate , so 8 x 0.5 = 4, 12 bank equivalent ). I think it is okay bcz dutch late game eco is somewhat weak.
The Dutch age 1 cards which increase bank limit seem to have an abysmal value, indeed.

The Dutch economy starts with a pop limit of 50 vills and a bank limit of 5. Their max economic capacity is equivalent of only ~70 villagers. The advantage of banks is of course than you can spam them while creating villagers, so you can boom faster than your opponents. However, in order to increase the economic capacity to levels which are competitive for later ages, you will need to invest. You can improve your economic capacity by 4 with each of the mentioned age 1 shipments, by another 8 using coffee trade and by a final 8 doing the imperial upgrade in capitol to reach a final economic capacity worth ~94 (unupgraded) villagers. This may look stronger as it is, since all other civs have higher yields per villager in late-game than the Dutch imaginary bank villager.

A bank (2.75g/s) is very close to 4 Dutch villagers (their base gather rate for gold is 0.69). The age 1 cards, however, do not send you an actual bank. They only allow you to construct one more bank at the additional cost of 350f/350w. The investment for such a bank is likely to be >1400 resources, since you are unlikely to send the bank cards in age 1 and could have shipped res crates instead. It does not look very beneficial. Hence, I somewhat like the idea of increasing bank limits with age up from.

However, the Dutch are in a good spot currently. Doing such a change is likely to lead to new balance problems. And that is just unnecessary. Dutch are somewhat of a mixture between Ottomans (have to pay for higher economic capacity) and British (can boom by constructing economic buildings worth 20 villagers). While their late-game economy (on non-water maps) is quite bad, they still have the advantage of 50 additional force limit. Getting their late-game economy on par with others is likely to make them too strong in late-game.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

duckzilla wrote:
aqwer wrote:I think dutch cards in age 1 that increases bank build limit should be removed. You have to start with 4 bank limit in discovery and every age up should give +1 bank limit. This will give us total 12 banks in total including coffe trade and excessive taxation. Which is same bank eco in nilla ( bcz excessive texation on nilla gives +50% bank gather rate , so 8 x 0.5 = 4, 12 bank equivalent ). I think it is okay bcz dutch late game eco is somewhat weak.
The Dutch age 1 cards which increase bank limit seem to have an abysmal value, indeed.

The Dutch economy starts with a pop limit of 50 vills and a bank limit of 5. Their max economic capacity is equivalent of only ~70 villagers. The advantage of banks is of course than you can spam them while creating villagers, so you can boom faster than your opponents. However, in order to increase the economic capacity to levels which are competitive for later ages, you will need to invest. You can improve your economic capacity by 4 with each of the mentioned age 1 shipments, by another 8 using coffee trade and by a final 8 doing the imperial upgrade in capitol to reach a final economic capacity worth ~94 (unupgraded) villagers. This may look stronger as it is, since all other civs have higher yields per villager in late-game than the Dutch imaginary bank villager.

A bank (2.75g/s) is very close to 4 Dutch villagers (their base gather rate for gold is 0.69). The age 1 cards, however, do not send you an actual bank. They only allow you to construct one more bank at the additional cost of 350f/350w. The investment for such a bank is likely to be >1400 resources, since you are unlikely to send the bank cards in age 1 and could have shipped res crates instead. It does not look very beneficial. Hence, I somewhat like the idea of increasing bank limits with age up from.

However, the Dutch are in a good spot currently. Doing such a change is likely to lead to new balance problems. And that is just unnecessary. Dutch are somewhat of a mixture between Ottomans (have to pay for higher economic capacity) and British (can boom by constructing economic buildings worth 20 villagers). While their late-game economy (on non-water maps) is quite bad, they still have the advantage of 50 additional force limit. Getting their late-game economy on par with others is likely to make them too strong in late-game.
I've been arguing for a while now that Bank of Amsterdam/Bank of Rotterdam are just straight up terrible cards. They're probably even bad for an average age 1 card. These cards should not be in any competitive 1v1 deck. I'm pretty sure they are the worst cards that can be found in the deck of pros.

In that sense I'd be sad if they were removed/changed. I enjoy seeing that good players can do stupid things.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

duckzilla wrote:
aqwer wrote:I think dutch cards in age 1 that increases bank build limit should be removed. You have to start with 4 bank limit in discovery and every age up should give +1 bank limit. This will give us total 12 banks in total including coffe trade and excessive taxation. Which is same bank eco in nilla ( bcz excessive texation on nilla gives +50% bank gather rate , so 8 x 0.5 = 4, 12 bank equivalent ). I think it is okay bcz dutch late game eco is somewhat weak.
The Dutch age 1 cards which increase bank limit seem to have an abysmal value, indeed.

The Dutch economy starts with a pop limit of 50 vills and a bank limit of 5. Their max economic capacity is equivalent of only ~70 villagers. The advantage of banks is of course than you can spam them while creating villagers, so you can boom faster than your opponents. However, in order to increase the economic capacity to levels which are competitive for later ages, you will need to invest. You can improve your economic capacity by 4 with each of the mentioned age 1 shipments, by another 8 using coffee trade and by a final 8 doing the imperial upgrade in capitol to reach a final economic capacity worth ~94 (unupgraded) villagers. This may look stronger as it is, since all other civs have higher yields per villager in late-game than the Dutch imaginary bank villager.

A bank (2.75g/s) is very close to 4 Dutch villagers (their base gather rate for gold is 0.69). The age 1 cards, however, do not send you an actual bank. They only allow you to construct one more bank at the additional cost of 350f/350w. The investment for such a bank is likely to be >1400 resources, since you are unlikely to send the bank cards in age 1 and could have shipped res crates instead. It does not look very beneficial. Hence, I somewhat like the idea of increasing bank limits with age up from.

However, the Dutch are in a good spot currently. Doing such a change is likely to lead to new balance problems. And that is just unnecessary. Dutch are somewhat of a mixture between Ottomans (have to pay for higher economic capacity) and British (can boom by constructing economic buildings worth 20 villagers). While their late-game economy (on non-water maps) is quite bad, they still have the advantage of 50 additional force limit. Getting their late-game economy on par with others is likely to make them too strong in late-game.
I think it will effectively increase bank limit by 2 (12 bank in total, for base limit = 4), but an added advantage is that you could ignore coffe trade for some time due to its penalty. Iirc on nilla, you can have 8 banks with all cards and stuff and capital "Excessive taxation" increases bank gather rate by 50%, so effectively making them 12 bank. So do you think that dutch with 12 banks is too strong late game? And that is the exact reason why they changed capital tech to extra banks rather than gather rate?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Bank of Amsterdam and Bank of Rotterdam would probably be more appealing if they increased the build limit by 2 banks each, instead of one.
It would still be a card that's not worth sending early on, but in the lategame they actually would become quite useful and most players could avoid recurring to excessive taxation coffee trade for extra eco.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Unlocking banks like that upon age up means you can get a 6th bank upon fortress, which sounds situationally too strong.

If anything, keep only one of these age 1 cards, and make it increase bank limit by 2. I think that would be balanced, at least in 1v1.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Technically speaking there are already zero balance issues as it is right now. These cards are even in quite a few pro player decks, so they seem quite fine already.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

Kaiserklein wrote:Unlocking banks like that upon age up means you can get a 6th bank upon fortress, which sounds situationally too strong.

If anything, keep only one of these age 1 cards, and make it increase bank limit by 2. I think that would be balanced, at least in 1v1.
]
Base bank limit of 4, {not ep}
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

So we have a bank limit of 4, then age to age 2 and it's 5 banks in age 2, and then age to age 3 and i'ts 6 banks in fortess, just like Kaiser said. Right?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

RefluxSemantic wrote:So we have a bank limit of 4, then age to age 2 and it's 5 banks in age 2, and then age to age 3 and i'ts 6 banks in fortess, just like Kaiser said. Right?
Yes
But you can build 6 or even 7 by coffee trade
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this change. What problem did you identify that needs changing? Why is this change solving that problem? If there's not a clear problem, why would this change make the game better? I don't see it. It just feels like a change with no purpose at all.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

The cards are bad to begin with, and these slots can be used for something else, maybe schooners and fish market on water map.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

So the solution is to not put them in your deck..
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aqwer »

that is one way to look at it
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

Perhaps the cards (Bank of Amsterdam/Bank of Rotterdam) could also send crates of 300 gold. They are banks after all and that would make them more appealing.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Stop... Dutch is fine. Stop trying to implement random changes to break them. They are fine. No changes needed, none at all.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

RefluxSemantic wrote:Stop... Dutch is fine. Stop trying to implement random changes to break them. They are fine. No changes needed, none at all.
Isn't this the "Dutch Discussion Thread"?
We are just proposing ideas, if you think the Dutch are fine right now, I can understand that. But what I cannot understand is you giving us commands. We are not trying to "break them" and these are not "random" changes.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I guess you're free to propose your fun pr20 ideas. I'm just afraid that Zoi will actually implement them.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jotunir »

RefluxSemantic wrote:I guess you're free to propose your fun pr20 ideas. I'm just afraid that Zoi will actually implement them.
You shouldn't treat me with disrespect (or anyone else for that matter). This is a forum and we should be able to discuss freely. If changes are implemented or not, it's not up to us to decide. We can just propose ideas.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by aaryngend »

I think the point of the two age 1 bank cards is that they are meant for super-late game, when all important shipments are sent and all you need is a higher bank limit, so you send them.
It's a tradeoff, if you want to max out your bank limit early, you have to send a "weaker" shipment in place of a better one.
Age 1 cards are also great because they don't occupy age 2 or 3 slots, where you will almost have the most cards.

The dutch mechanics are like this on purpose, if you want a higher bank limit, you need to send cards for it.

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