just get rid of walls...

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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by deleted_user »

Tbh this thread should be highlighted to show biased players in this community. Like one guy can fucking ask for removing walls just because couldn't lame sioux well, no honor really...While some others can suggest pathetic changes such as moving them to IV or making further and further nerfs just to save their classic semi ff skirm goon timing push playstle. No point even at discussing here anymore. Out.
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French Southern Territories kevinitalien
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by kevinitalien »

deleted_user wrote:Tbh this shread should be highlighted to show biased players in this community. Like one guy can fucking ask for removing walls just because couldn't lame sioux well, no honor really...While some others can suggest pathetic changes such as moving them to IV or making further and further nerfs just to save their classic semi ff skirm goon timing push playstle. No point even at discussing here anymore. Out.
it is that with you that we cannot discuss, you blame people because they want to defend their style of play goons but you defend your style of play also from what I see
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah I mean his only "argument" is "skirm goon bots" so what do you expect to discuss. No matter how much more you know about the game than him, if you disagree he'll call you a bot. Even though his playstyle is way more one dimensional anyway...
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Armenia Sargsyan
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Sargsyan »

breeze calling others biased is based
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
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Latvia harcha
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by harcha »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah I mean his only "argument" is "skirm goon bots" so what do you expect to discuss. No matter how much more you know about the game than him, if you disagree he'll call you a bot. Even though his playstyle is way more one dimensional anyway...
why use facts when you can use feelings instead, am i right?
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POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by somp »

Breeze is obviously as biased as others but I agree that walls got slightly overnerfed because some people find walling strategies boring. Which is valid argument against them but you can't automatically nerf someone's playstyle only because you find it boring.
I also agree that skirm-goon is always a good option you can never go wrong with it. Skirm-cav should do significantly better vs skirm-goon than it does. Skirm-goon is very forgiving combo, I would say. There is no hard counter against it.

How could someone argue with facts here anyway? I think only "fact" I can think of is that the best players do not really wall much, therefore I find it hard to believe they're op.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by somp »

I mean... Lack of testing is an indicator how little people cared if they are "balanced" or not.


If we nerfed goons or skirmishers straight -50% hp I wonder what would happen. Should have probably tried other options as 10w/3k wall or 5w/2k/wall limit first.
Whether uhlan/sepoy gains or loses 5-10hp has been discussed a lot but nobody questioned straight -50% nerf.
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Latvia harcha
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by harcha »

certainly there has been a lack of testing for many balance issues... the problem is that there are too few testers
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by kevinitalien »

somp wrote:I mean... Lack of testing is an indicator how little people cared if they are "balanced" or not.


If we nerfed goons or skirmishers straight -50% hp I wonder what would happen. Should have probably tried other options as 10w/3k wall or 5w/2k/wall limit first.
Whether uhlan/sepoy gains or loses 5-10hp has been discussed a lot but nobody questioned straight -50% nerf.
following your resonance, if we increase the walls to 10 of wood but 3000hp,it is therefore increasing its price by 100%,

if we put the wall 5 of wood but 2000hp, we lower the hp by about 35%

it's the same for me it's a huge nerf so according to your point of view
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by chronique »

Just imagine breeze/kynesis becoming the new meta ^^. Prob fun the first two game but not sure... Also it's virtually impossible to make all style equaly vialbe. If the game is balance arround skirm/goon, civ like aztek (which lack of this two unit) can be balance arround that, but will be very unbalance against an other viable style.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

somp wrote:Breeze is obviously as biased as others but I agree that walls got slightly overnerfed because some people find walling strategies boring. Which is valid argument against them but you can't automatically nerf someone's playstyle only because you find it boring.
I also agree that skirm-goon is always a good option you can never go wrong with it. Skirm-cav should do significantly better vs skirm-goon than it does. Skirm-goon is very forgiving combo, I would say. There is no hard counter against it.
Do we really think walls were overnerfed? I mean it's still 5 wood for 1500 hp, out of which you sometimes get an absolutely obscene value. Like ryan said, trading a wall segment for a couple free kills is already a really good trade. "Last second" walls are also very underrated and used a lot by e.g Mitoe or myself, you can literally win a game because of a couple wall segments blocking your opponent escaping / protecting your ranged units. Like on kamchatka, you can easily lose your entire raid or army (and probably the game) because of a quick wall segment blocking a choke.
I think what got arguably overnerfed is the full wall turtle style, not walls themselves. That's because that style wasn't really viable to begin with in most situations, and because a vast majority of players hate that style, which like you said is already a good reason to nerf it. Even if we wanted to make that style viable though, I don't really see a way without also making walls extremely OP in other situations I mentioned.

About skirm goon, it's just the safest option to open with, as it's a balanced composition, and kiting is very efficient in small numbers. But it's by no means the optimal composition in the longer run, in most situations. I think I'm repeating myself here, but I don't feel like I win e.g tourney games very often just by going skirm/goon. A good example of that is my latest series vs Mitoe, where none of us really ever went skirm/goon, except arguably in a couple games where it wasn't ever pure skirm/goon at any point.
Btw let's keep in mind EP did nerf goons significantly. Also it's probably harder to counter musk based compositions in most MUs (without going musks yourself), in colonial, than to counter skirm/goon in fortress.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by somp »

But if you wall a choke etc does the hp matter at all?
It rather matters when people actually go full turtle. Turtle style is just quite shiiet also because tp radar deleted and every map tons of tps.

Yea skirm-goon discussion been over 100x, cba, ur right about mosks when there are only xbows.

@kevinitalien was just saying that some of those coule have been options. I agree walls deserved nerf but not that so hard. Wondering what the hp in DE is.

Note admins: Here I am not asking somebody to reveal it. Only wondering in my mind. Please don't ban me.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

No, the hp doesn't necessarily matters for quick wall segments, though it sometimes does (when you have to siege that wall down to escape / reach opponent's units).
Realistically you'd need to at least double the building time of walls if you wanted to nerf quick walls properly. But that would also nerf hard the full turtle style, right? You probably wouldn't ever be able to get walls up in time then.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Kaiserklein wrote:No, the hp doesn't necessarily matters for quick wall segments, though it sometimes does (when you have to siege that wall down to escape / reach opponent's units).
Realistically you'd need to at least double the building time of walls if you wanted to nerf quick walls properly. But that would also nerf hard the full turtle style, right? You probably wouldn't ever be able to get walls up in time then.
But throwing down a quick wall at the right time to save units or block the opponent army demands skill and does not impact balance (since all civs can use it), so I don't really see the problem with that. It does not make games boring either, tbh it's the contrary as far as viewers are concerned. Walls are only a balance and design problem in the turtle play style, which does not seem optimal right now in most MUs anyway.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

No, it totally impacts balance. It favours civs with the range and/or tech advantage, typically artillery or RI compositions. And it favours defensive civs obviously.

It does take some skill but that's not really the point. And it doesn't seem boring because it's not used much, but if it was more of a thing, it would make games more passive, as people would be afraid to overcommit vs last second walls.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Narida »

I think walls suck because they reduce the need to multitask for the rest of the game which is one of the key skills. I think its good they are weak and cheap because it means you need to use some skill rewalling or anticipating how many layers you need. When walls are strong spamming them everywhere and going late game with civs that scale well I think is actually much better than people realize and makes for shite gameplay. I think there are much better ways to make defensive options better. You could boost tc dmg or CM or make any of all the cards that never get sent viable (like building hp, forts tower cards, tc wagons etc).
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by iCourt »

Comparing AOE2 walls to AOE3???

Does AOM competitive scene have a wall problem?

I know for a fact they had different costs for segments and pillars. That would be the cleanest solution imo.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by blackout »

iCourt wrote: Does AOM competitive scene have a wall problem?
Is there really still a competitive scene for aom? Thought that game is completely dead
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by dansil92 »

blackout wrote:
iCourt wrote: Does AOM competitive scene have a wall problem?
Is there really still a competitive scene for aom? Thought that game is completely dead
Boit still runs an aom youtube channel. Hes basically the interjection of mythology lol He posts a game usually once a day at 0:00gmt

Edit:


Kronos vs Zeus game.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Rohbrot »

blackout wrote:
iCourt wrote: Does AOM competitive scene have a wall problem?
Is there really still a competitive scene for aom? Thought that game is completely dead
Aom has more active players tho.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by blackout »

Fascinating. More active players than who?
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Rohbrot »

blackout wrote:Fascinating. More active players than who?
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by helln00 »

iCourt wrote:Comparing AOE2 walls to AOE3???

Does AOM competitive scene have a wall problem?

I know for a fact they had different costs for segments and pillars. That would be the cleanest solution imo.
to add to that AOM's wall cost gold so u give up army to build them.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by drsingh »

The problem is not only walls. But the siege option of all civ not being equal. Mele siege is ok against most defensive buildings but not walls.
For supremacy high hp walls won't be balanced even if expensive. I'm not sure how they work in treaty..

5 wood cost. 2000 hp walls with 100% increased build time. Can be tried, I think. Bastion can add cost 5c with same build time. So repairing bastion walls need more resources. There needs to be more VS and particularly time latency for a person going full walls. So he needs to start early with one or 2 villager. Sacrificing early eco. And allowing the enemy to use eco shipments instead of military, if they are able to scout.

If people are not as much invested in military when they face a full wall. They might not get that much irritated. While also having ability to out boom a turtle opponent. By going fortress for boom or artillery.
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Re: just get rid of walls...

Post by Kaiserklein »

drsingh wrote:5 wood cost. 2000 hp walls with 100% increased build time. Can be tried, I think. Bastion can add cost 5c with same build time.
That sounds fair tbh
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