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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 19:57

As we all know(for better or for worse), Grenadiers have been buffed in the Definitive edition, most notably having a lower wind-up for attacking and a 20 gold cheaper cost, so obviously I decided to try them out. And here is my verdict:

They are still rather poor for the most part.

First of all, the Grenadier's stats.
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And most importantly, a 0.5 second wind-up and 0.5 second projectile travel time.
What we have here is a fairly durable unit with low range, and seemingly adept at fighting masses of Infantry and Buildings, whilst being abysmal vs Cavalry and Shock Infantry.
What does this all mean in practice?
To properly test this, I decided to run a simulation with an average non-upgraded Grenadier against units it is supposed to fight, and compared it to a non-upgraded Skirmisher, the obvious comparison. Results are expected to transfer well into the higher ages, and I will talk about upgrades later on in this post.
10 Grenadiers/16 Skirms(adjusted to be approximately equal in seconds needed to gather resources for each)
VS 20 Musketeers/30 Streltsy/16 Skirms(just for Grenadiers)/25 Crossbowmen
Both units have full vision of eachother, are in default formation and attack from the get-go.
Selection_005.png
Wall was added to prevent the AI units from moving out.
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Results are as follows:
Grenadier:
VS Musketeers: 3 Musketeers left
VS Streltsy: 4.75 Grenadiers left
VS Skirmishers: 4.5 Grenadiers left
VS Crossbows: 8 Crossbows left
Skirmisher:
VS Musketeers: 5 Skirmishers left
VS Streltsy: 1.75 Skirmishers left
VS Grenadiers: 4.5 Grenadiers left
VS Crossbows: 16 Crossbows left

As you can see, on average Grenadiers perform admirably against masses of weak units, while losing to Musketeers and their high HP and Crossbows due to Grenadiers' Heavy Infantry tag. Many people were under the impression that Grenadiers would work well versus Musketeers, and this is actually not the case at least until Grenadiers hit a critical mass, due to how Area of Effect damage works(it's not as simple as you think, and I will definitely need to write on it in a future post) and the Musketeers' relatively high HP.

Also important to take into account is Range. Skirmishers have 20 range, and similar units float around the 18-22 Range ballpark. Grenadiers need to get close to Skirmishers in order to fire, by which point Skirmishers can reliably fire 1-2 volleys or hit and run effectively. Archer-type units are easier to fight due to their wind-up, but their range allows them to fire at least a volley before Grenadiers come near.
Overall you need a way to keep these in place in order for Grenadiers to do their work, at which point you're better off just massing Melee Cavalry with Skirmishers to clean up the Heavy Infantry/Dragoons in most cases, providing you with more effective range and a good unit to tank the enemy fire.

Now, what about them Hand Mortars?
I'll keep it simple.
They are not worth it.
All they effectively do is reduce the wind-up to almost nonexistant, allowing you easier micro. Thing is, given the units you will be fighting and Grenadiers' weaknesses, you will almost never be put into a situation where you can effectively use the quick firing well.

What about Russia and their Hungary revolt?
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Exception, as there always needs to be one, lies with Hungarian Grenadiers, which easily go up to 20 range, and where the nonexistant windup might actually have a good use. Thing is, it's a Revolution unit unique to Russia, so not something you can reliably count on.
Either way, they are unironically amazing, and I think Russia has a potentially insane Revolution option, especially as they are trainable and equivalent to standard Grenadiers for the purposes of upgrades. Watch out for Artillery mass though, since they have a 0.5x malus versus them.

What about Ottomans?
Ottoman upgrades and cards affect their basic stats, not their weaknesses. With those cards they will simply perform better where they are already good at, and remain abysmal elsewhere.

The French?
You have some of the best Skirmishers and Melee Cavalry in the game. Why would you use Grenadiers?

Have you taken into account Arsenal upgrades?
Only one which helps alleviate Grenadier's weaknesses is Military Drums, which is an Advanced Arsenal upgrade. So, requires a shipment and 300 resources for a mere 10% speed boost.

What about upgraded Grenadiers?
A large investment that requires a large amount of already expensive units to be worth it. Not to mention that Skirmishers get their Veteran upgrade for free at Age 3, so they will perform even better than in the simulation.

So, are they useless?
Not really, they are just very niche. Against matchups like Russia, China and Aztec, where you can expect to fight lots of frail infantry, Grenadiers will perform very well, mowing down hordes of units easily, and giving some Youtube-worthy moments. That is, unless they decide to surprise you with Cavalry or Shock Infantry, which they can easily obtain and proceed to make you regret investing in an Artillery Foundry. Be ready to ship some Pikemen or Musketeers for backup.

Overall, while Grenadiers have been greatly improved compared to before Definitive Edition, they nonetheless are a unit that should only be used in specific circumstances, where it will truly shine. In short, when you can kill 5 units with 3 Grenades. Otherwise, just stick to your Barracks :)
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 20:00

Originally I wanted to make a Youtube video about this, but due to how unoptimized the game is, I was unable to play effectively and have OBS recording my screen at the same time. So I decided to make a text about it. If upcoming patches fix said issues well enough I will definitely revisit this topic in video form. Until then, writing is always fun :)

Tell me what you think!
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Italy Garja
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17 Oct 2020, 20:05

They have been nerfed just before release (less rr, slower ROF and worse multiplier vs cav) but after the gren launcher they still destroy almost any infantry. Btw the card does give +2 range which is important.
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 20:15

Garja wrote:They have been nerfed just before release (less rr, slower ROF and worse multiplier vs cav) but after the gren launcher they still destroy almost any infantry. Btw the card does give +2 range which is important.

The 2 range makes them excellent vs short-range infantry, like Musketeers, but said destruction requires a critical mass to pull off, from a specific building, of a unit that's expensive and easily counterable.
They will be excellent where they are already great, but where they do badly they will continue to be so, beyond microing VS Musks.
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Canada dansil92
ESOC Maps Team
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17 Oct 2020, 20:47

Fairly certain they are not classed as heavy inf on DE
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=441858#p441857
My official maps thread


There is a master sergeant level solution for every PR 40 problem.
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 20:52

dansil92 wrote:Fairly certain they are not classed as heavy inf on DE

Screenshot from 2020-10-17 22-51-54.png
I am sad too :(
Screenshot from 2020-10-17 22-51-54.png (3.33 MiB) Viewed 705 times
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Canada dansil92
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ESO: dansil92

17 Oct 2020, 20:55

Patch notes list it as being removed. What other lies is the council telling me?
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=441858#p441857
My official maps thread


There is a master sergeant level solution for every PR 40 problem.
-Le Hussard sur le toit
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 21:02

dansil92 wrote:Patch notes list it as being removed. What other lies is the council telling me?

Hopefully not that I don't deserve a good PC for recording games :mrgreen:
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Italy Garja
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ESO: Garja

17 Oct 2020, 21:39

They're still HI I think but with 40% rr and high hp and with their damage and range they beat skirms. It's just that you need to mass them and usually can't afford 2 foundries. I mean one is usually enough as you also send stuff like falcs just to keep infantry low count but sometimes you feel like you need two foundries to mass enough.
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Canada dansil92
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17 Oct 2020, 21:58

The "" Official "" notes list them as having the tag removed. Guess it's a bug
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=441858#p441857
My official maps thread


There is a master sergeant level solution for every PR 40 problem.
-Le Hussard sur le toit
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
Skirmisher
Posts: 155
ESO: ShinkuroYukinari

17 Oct 2020, 22:53

dansil92 wrote:The "" Official "" notes list them as having the tag removed. Guess it's a bug

Maybe they reverted that change and forgot to remove said statement?
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Australia Io_
Crossbow
Posts: 23
ESO: Io_

18 Oct 2020, 00:19

ottoman church card gives heavy infantry 0.5x multiplier against cavalry not that it matters. (if these things even are HI)
No Flag helln00
Dragoon
Posts: 433
ESO: helln00

18 Oct 2020, 01:17

I think they are meant to be a snowball unit that you have to support ur main composition and build up slowly or if you want to build a very aoe focused comp. Like I am finding that with the new animation having a few gren to support british musks or added to a frech cuir comp or a chinese cav comp makes the snowball even more powerful.

They basically prevent overkill when you attack move and so allows you to trade better
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Canada dansil92
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: dansil92

18 Oct 2020, 01:54

Theres a chance grens may be relevant in brit mirrors again, would love to see that
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=441858#p441857
My official maps thread


There is a master sergeant level solution for every PR 40 problem.
-Le Hussard sur le toit
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United States of America 007Salt
Dragoon
Posts: 302
ESO: bittersalt123
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

18 Oct 2020, 02:48

Grens are just a fun unit to use and cheesing with them in 2x2 is fun if done right.
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Germany Sergeant_Recker
Crossbow
Posts: 12
ESO: Sergeant_Recker

18 Oct 2020, 09:07

dansil92 wrote:The "" Official "" notes list them as having the tag removed. Guess it's a bug

No, it mentions that the Heavy Infantry tag is only removed for Arsonists and Chakrams and not Grenadiers. It's not a bug.
United States of America Inst
Skirmisher
Posts: 152
ESO: Inst

18 Oct 2020, 19:05

Why don't you try to test them in combined arms; i.e, you mix musketeers with grenadiers and then have them face an equivalent vs worth of grenadiers? Alternatively, mass hussars and grenadiers together and have them face musketeers.

With grenadiers, they have glaring vulnerabilities (terrible in melee, overly reliant on ranged resistance for survivability), so the game isn't going to want you to mass grenadiers alone. The grenadiers also have slightly better DPS for VS than musketeers, while having slightly worse health for cost than musketeers when RR isn't considered. It might be practical to have a mixed musketeer and grenadier unit with grenadiers tanking for musketeers.
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Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 943
Location: Well hello DEre

18 Oct 2020, 21:39

I would prefer grenadiers to have rifles with bayonets, and grenades as a switched stance, to give some field for micro skills (RR would be removed in favour of a melee resist). They would be a heavy musketeer unit good against mobs of weak units and for taking on buildings, trainable at the artillery foundry, so with some risk involved.
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Canada dansil92
ESOC Maps Team
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ESO: dansil92

18 Oct 2020, 22:04

If they're gonna be heavy infantry they honestly should be countering cav. I hate the inconsistency that skirmishers counter anticav and also grens cuz why not
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?p=441858#p441857
My official maps thread


There is a master sergeant level solution for every PR 40 problem.
-Le Hussard sur le toit
Latvia harcha
Howdah
Posts: 1854
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

19 Oct 2020, 07:59

dansil92 wrote:The "" Official "" notes list them as having the tag removed. Guess it's a bug

Well I remember this one game in beta where I made naginatas with the intention of countering the british grenadiers, but to my surprise the enemy was equipped with !vitamins turning their grenadiers into heavy infantry. Needless to say Ashi Nagi lost to Musk Gren. Perhaps the discussion about HI tag should be carried over to the official forum.
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