Hence #Ladder matters #ELOmatters #rank mattersI_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:That moment when kaiser is already guaranteed a bigger payout than what hazza/Haitch got for winning the ESOC Challenge Cup
$1K Table Topper - February 2021
- Challenger_Marco
- ESOC Media Team
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Just to weigh in on that issue of the prize and the ladder etc. The concept behind this is to bring some more meaning to the ladder year round. It's obviously something new, so it might work and might not. But when we were coming up with this the idea is that this prize doesn't just represent winning the showmatch, but also the grind involved in maintaining that ELO.
Always interested in people's perspectives. As with anything new I know some people will love it and other will hate it, and that's okay. We're also of course totally open to collaborating with ESOC or anyone else. The more good content out there for this game the better for the whole community.
Always interested in people's perspectives. As with anything new I know some people will love it and other will hate it, and that's okay. We're also of course totally open to collaborating with ESOC or anyone else. The more good content out there for this game the better for the whole community.
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- Dragoon
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
make a lot of sense imo. I like itEGCTV wrote:the idea is that this prize doesn't just represent winning the showmatch, but also the grind involved in maintaining that ELO.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
I think for the first month its fine, but if this is ongoing then it starts to not make sense because it disincentives playing for someone if they get a comfortable ranking and it also incentivizes laming the absolutely most broken stuff on the ladder. I also don't think you want to get in a situation where a player is #2 on the ladder because they abused sweden for example, and then the showmatch quality is really bad because they can't win with other civs. Spending 3000-5000$ on a 2 month tournament would give you better content and more interaction with an audience.EGCTV wrote:Just to weigh in on that issue of the prize and the ladder etc. The concept behind this is to bring some more meaning to the ladder year round. It's obviously something new, so it might work and might not. But when we were coming up with this the idea is that this prize doesn't just represent winning the showmatch, but also the grind involved in maintaining that ELO.
Always interested in people's perspectives. As with anything new I know some people will love it and other will hate it, and that's okay. We're also of course totally open to collaborating with ESOC or anyone else. The more good content out there for this game the better for the whole community.
mad cuz bad
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Ye, in general you don't want to rely too much on the ladder. It's accurate overall, but you can get or lose 200 elo depending on your time zone, your civs, you win streak etc.
This month it seems ok as the players selected are top5 players, but this is not the greatest system.
This month it seems ok as the players selected are top5 players, but this is not the greatest system.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
I see your points and agree on some of them. That said, in my view it's pretty rare someone gets so comfortable at the top that they can shut down. I think there's a lot of quality right now and I don't think anyone will be able to walk it.I think for the first month its fine, but if this is ongoing then it starts to not make sense because it disincentives playing for someone if they get a comfortable ranking and it also incentivizes laming the absolutely most broken stuff on the ladder. I also don't think you want to get in a situation where a player is #2 on the ladder because they abused sweden for example, and then the showmatch quality is really bad because they can't win with other civs. Spending 3000-5000$ on a 2 month tournament would give you better content and more interaction with an audience.
Regarding the Sweden situation, this is definitely something we thought about. But my view, ultimately, is that we can't police civs because the precedent gets messy. Plenty of people think Japan is OP right now too, but I think it's for the devs to balance civs, not tournament organisers. One thing we're thinking of doing to address both the points you've made is in the long term giving the #1 a bye into the final and doing a mini tournament for players 2-5 to play in the final (similar to what happened now). This way you'll have to at least win with two civs to make the final.
Finally I hear you about doing something bigger and less frequent and it's 100% on the agenda, with a couple of ideas floating around. Ideally would love to co-sponsor/host with ESOC or other organisations because I think too many tournaments will begin go dilute too much but either way it's very much on the cards.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
understand 100%. message me on discord about the second part of that. love to do something. n0eL#6983EGCTV wrote:I see your points and agree on some of them. That said, in my view it's pretty rare someone gets so comfortable at the top that they can shut down. I think there's a lot of quality right now and I don't think anyone will be able to walk it.I think for the first month its fine, but if this is ongoing then it starts to not make sense because it disincentives playing for someone if they get a comfortable ranking and it also incentivizes laming the absolutely most broken stuff on the ladder. I also don't think you want to get in a situation where a player is #2 on the ladder because they abused sweden for example, and then the showmatch quality is really bad because they can't win with other civs. Spending 3000-5000$ on a 2 month tournament would give you better content and more interaction with an audience.
Regarding the Sweden situation, this is definitely something we thought about. But my view, ultimately, is that we can't police civs because the precedent gets messy. Plenty of people think Japan is OP right now too, but I think it's for the devs to balance civs, not tournament organisers. One thing we're thinking of doing to address both the points you've made is in the long term giving the #1 a bye into the final and doing a mini tournament for players 2-5 to play in the final (similar to what happened now). This way you'll have to at least win with two civs to make the final.
Finally I hear you about doing something bigger and less frequent and it's 100% on the agenda, with a couple of ideas floating around. Ideally would love to co-sponsor/host with ESOC or other organisations because I think too many tournaments will begin go dilute too much but either way it's very much on the cards.
mad cuz bad
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
I think this is not the perfect Format but the perfect way to start extending the community.
We might have a small community but have a look at other E-Sports there is not just one perfect tournament type and everyone is happy.
What makes the biggest E-Sports to what they are is that there are different competitions which have their own nieche. There are Showmatches, leagues, big and small tournaments.
Certainly we wont get nearly on the Level of a LOL or CSGO and that's ok, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Maybe sometimes in the future we might have a simple league that gives us entertainment in a regular fashion.
Personally I have really liked the recent ESOC Tournament and watched every match but I wouldnt watch a similiar tournament 5 times a Year. I would much rather prefer to have those tournaments as highlights once or twice a year and have some different competitions on the side. I simply dont have the Time to watch a Best of 9 this often.
Thank you to EGCTV and Aussie for doing this.
We might have a small community but have a look at other E-Sports there is not just one perfect tournament type and everyone is happy.
What makes the biggest E-Sports to what they are is that there are different competitions which have their own nieche. There are Showmatches, leagues, big and small tournaments.
Certainly we wont get nearly on the Level of a LOL or CSGO and that's ok, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Maybe sometimes in the future we might have a simple league that gives us entertainment in a regular fashion.
Personally I have really liked the recent ESOC Tournament and watched every match but I wouldnt watch a similiar tournament 5 times a Year. I would much rather prefer to have those tournaments as highlights once or twice a year and have some different competitions on the side. I simply dont have the Time to watch a Best of 9 this often.
Thank you to EGCTV and Aussie for doing this.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Seems interesting. Just curious, though: what exactly is "EGCTV"?
I have looked at:
- the Website (which essentially contains no information aside from this tourney)
- the Youtube channel (9 subscribers, no videos)
- the Twitch channel (82 followers, no videos, basically no information)
I don't mean to be rude, but I would really like to know more about this. Who is behind EGCTV? Is it a commercial venture/for profit? Who is hosting it? Is Drongo involved personally? Is it focused on AoE3 or beyond that?
Just seems a bit weird that something with such a "big name" and a rather large scale tourney for AoE3 standards would come out of nowhere with no clear affiliation. Again, no offense, just curious.
I have looked at:
- the Website (which essentially contains no information aside from this tourney)
- the Youtube channel (9 subscribers, no videos)
- the Twitch channel (82 followers, no videos, basically no information)
I don't mean to be rude, but I would really like to know more about this. Who is behind EGCTV? Is it a commercial venture/for profit? Who is hosting it? Is Drongo involved personally? Is it focused on AoE3 or beyond that?
Just seems a bit weird that something with such a "big name" and a rather large scale tourney for AoE3 standards would come out of nowhere with no clear affiliation. Again, no offense, just curious.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Thanks for this. I agree with this sentiment 100%. Certainly lots of best of 9 games would get boring and they take too long to watch. I think of it almost like snooker or cricket (these will be horrible analogies if you're not Commonwealth!) whereby the community needs a mixture between matches for the purists (BO9, long tournament formats etc) and sharper more exciting one-off games that you can watch more casually. I think we also need to think about how to bring in more variations and ensure more civs are played, which is all stuff I'll try take into account in the long term.Guest wrote:I think this is not the perfect Format but the perfect way to start extending the community.
We might have a small community but have a look at other E-Sports there is not just one perfect tournament type and everyone is happy.
What makes the biggest E-Sports to what they are is that there are different competitions which have their own nieche. There are Showmatches, leagues, big and small tournaments.
Certainly we wont get nearly on the Level of a LOL or CSGO and that's ok, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Maybe sometimes in the future we might have a simple league that gives us entertainment in a regular fashion.
Personally I have really liked the recent ESOC Tournament and watched every match but I wouldnt watch a similiar tournament 5 times a Year. I would much rather prefer to have those tournaments as highlights once or twice a year and have some different competitions on the side. I simply dont have the Time to watch a Best of 9 this often.
Thank you to EGCTV and Aussie for doing this.
While I agree the game will never be the size of LOL etc, in my view it is big enough to have a bigger competitive scene than it does right now. Hopefully all of us with the resources for this can get together and work out a long-term plan and schedule that ticks all the boxes.
- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
yeah i guess this is their/his (also could be her) launch event im sure lots on info about egctv will be dropped during the stream etc but otherwise yeah a lot of unknowns at the moment
- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Dont you dare bash test cricket! Everyone loves watching a 5 day game which cant be played in the rain which might not even result in a winner a the end of the 5 days!!EGCTV wrote:Thanks for this. I agree with this sentiment 100%. Certainly lots of best of 9 games would get boring and they take too long to watch. I think of it almost like snooker or cricket (these will be horrible analogies if you're not Commonwealth!) whereby the community needs a mixture between matches for the purists (BO9, long tournament formats etc) and sharper more exciting one-off games that you can watch more casually. I think we also need to think about how to bring in more variations and ensure more civs are played, which is all stuff I'll try take into account in the long term.Guest wrote:I think this is not the perfect Format but the perfect way to start extending the community.
We might have a small community but have a look at other E-Sports there is not just one perfect tournament type and everyone is happy.
What makes the biggest E-Sports to what they are is that there are different competitions which have their own nieche. There are Showmatches, leagues, big and small tournaments.
Certainly we wont get nearly on the Level of a LOL or CSGO and that's ok, but I think this is a step in the right direction. Maybe sometimes in the future we might have a simple league that gives us entertainment in a regular fashion.
Personally I have really liked the recent ESOC Tournament and watched every match but I wouldnt watch a similiar tournament 5 times a Year. I would much rather prefer to have those tournaments as highlights once or twice a year and have some different competitions on the side. I simply dont have the Time to watch a Best of 9 this often.
Thank you to EGCTV and Aussie for doing this.
While I agree the game will never be the size of LOL etc, in my view it is big enough to have a bigger competitive scene than it does right now. Hopefully all of us with the resources for this can get together and work out a long-term plan and schedule that ticks all the boxes.
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- Skirmisher
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Good stuff. Congrats to you and the sponsor. Keep up the great work!Aussie_Drongo wrote:
It is my pleasure to announce the $1K Table Topper for February 2021 will be going ahead this weekend, despite recent events. Due to the prevalence of cheaters on the ranked ladder, who have unfortunately impacted quite significantly the final standings, instead of the 2 highest placed players on the 1v1 ranked ladder, the following will occur:
- Preliminaries -> 18:00GMT on Saturday 6 March 2021 @ http://www.twitch.com/aussie_drongo
- Finals -> 18:00GMT on Sunday 7 March 2021 @ http://www.twitch.com/egctv
The first series of the preliminaries will be streamed on my twitch channel, beginning at 18:00GMT on Saturday 6 March 2021. My twitch channel can be found here: http://www.twitch.com/aussie_drongo
- Kaiserklein was at 2168 ELO at the end of the month and maintained a healthy ELO gap from the second rank for the duration of the last week of February, so will be given a bye into the showmatch.
- Knuschelbär, Haitch and Samwise12 were on 2090, 2089 and 2085 ELO respectively as the month ended, with next being Jimmy Pickles who was on 2017 ELO.
- I am not satisfied that Jimmy Pickles was within striking distance for second position on the 1v1 ranked ladder, and therefore, will not be invited to participate in the preliminary matches for the showmatch.
- Knuschelbär, Haitch and Samwise12 will be invited to take part in a round robin, where each player will face off in a best of 3 against each other.
- Hopefully the games do not result in a 3 way tie, as that is a difficult problem to solve and may delay things.
- The sponsor has agreed to increase the prize pool from $1000 to $1500, with $500 being awarded to second place. This is to guarantee that the player who is successful in the preliminary games is rewarded for their success.
The second and third series in the preliminaries will be streamed after the first series is complete on the EGCTV channel, who is the sponsor of this showmatch. The EGCTV twitch channel can be found here: http://www.twitch.com/egctv
The show match between Kaiserklein and the player successful in the preliminaries will be streamed on the EGCTV channel, beginning at 18:00GMT on Sunday 7 March 2021.
Guys, who do you see winning this thing? I have the impression Hazza/Haitch is a few steps ahead of everyone else right now. Kaiserklein, as the enfant terrible of AoE3, against Haitch should provide a good series.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
No problem, appreciate the question and will alway try to be as transparent as possible.Astaroth wrote:Seems interesting. Just curious, though: what exactly is "EGCTV"?
I have looked at:
- the Website (which essentially contains no information aside from this tourney)
- the Youtube channel (9 subscribers, no videos)
- the Twitch channel (82 followers, no videos, basically no information)
I don't mean to be rude, but I would really like to know more about this. Who is behind EGCTV? Is it a commercial venture/for profit? Who is hosting it? Is Drongo involved personally? Is it focused on AoE3 or beyond that?
Just seems a bit weird that something with such a "big name" and a rather large scale tourney for AoE3 standards would come out of nowhere with no clear affiliation. Again, no offense, just curious.
I'm behind EGCTV. I'd rather not dox myself quite yet, but I can tell you I'm a casual player and someone that's been involved in various projects in YouTube over the years. To answer your other questions:
[*] The website is empty because it was quickly put together to be in time for this tournament. It will eventually become increasingly populated.
[*] Same goes for YouTube and Twitch. This is really a test-run so I've tried to be wary about over extending on resources prior to confirming viability.
[*] I hope EGCTV can be somewhat commercial. Having made a living from YouTube ventures (totally outside of this area and niche) I think it's got a chance, but that would depend on a number of factors. As I'm a genuine huge fan of the game, I'm willing to give it a punt and if its borderline I'd keep going with it. Either way, short of AOE4 becoming absolutely massive, there's a low ceiling on how profitable something like this is likely to be, and I wouldn't do it if it was purely commercial motives (there remain far more profitable niches on YouTube).
[*] I would rather not answer on Aussie's behalf, I'm sure he'll share his POV if he wants, but from my perspective I can say he's hosting this tournament and as far as I'm concerned I hope he'll want to remain very involved in the longterm of this project after that too.
[*] For now it's AOE3 but I'm open to expanding that to other RTS games. As this is the only game I play, it's the obvious starting point.
I hope this answers your questions, but fire away if you'd like to know any more. The main thing I'd emphasise is that I'm not here to step on anyone's toes. Any kind of collaboration is invited and I really believe this project has the potential to be beneficial for the wider AOE 3 community and bring more attention to the game.
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- Skirmisher
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Awesome.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
@EGCTV Great, thanks for sharing. As an anonymous nobody without an investment in the game, I'm in no position to question anyone's motives myself of course, so I'm all the more grateful for your response.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
@Aussie_Drongo you might want to have a backup plan in case of a tie, its not unlikely to happen between these players. If you want to piss them off, you could make an ffa. Maybe weigh 2-0 win higher than 2-1, in case of all 2-1, community vote (with Garja option of course), an expert vote (invite a couple of trustable people to vote on who played best (kinda like a boxing jury)), or who has a higher winrate vs kaiser (tough to determine) or who has best/most recent tournament victories (biased towards hazza). Could also just make it who is highest on the ladder now/ was highest on month end (biased towards Knusch). These are all arbitrary and favor someone, but i think having a clear tiebreak rule in advance of the matches is preferrable and fairer to the players as well as alleviating possible organization hickups later on.
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Let the people vote who movese on if its a tie!!
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
why didn't samwise collect the free win with sweden so we could get 3x 2-1 tie and give aussie drongo a headache in dealing with that
- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Double tie-breaker into a win, anyone?don_artie wrote:why didn't samwise collect the free win with sweden so we could get 3x 2-1 tie and give aussie drongo a headache in dealing with that
viewtopic.php?f=180&t=7724
- princeofcarthage
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- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Hi everybody,
$1,500 Bo9 showmatch between kaiser and knusch going live now on
https://www.twitch.tv/egctv
See you over there!
$1,500 Bo9 showmatch between kaiser and knusch going live now on
https://www.twitch.tv/egctv
See you over there!
- Riotcoke
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
Honestly I think an IP check is needed for Kaiser's Brit, looks very sus and wouldn't be surprised if the IP is from Chicago.
twitch.tv/stangoesdeepTV
Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
The sweden stuff sucked and we can be a bit negative as a community sometimes, but my god this was a sick event. Best of 9 going all the way is just hype and also very unexpected match ups in the final 2 games. Thanks for hosting it
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- Crossbow
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Re: $1K Table Topper - February 2021
This was a amazing series!
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