3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

A little something I noticed.
Notice how most newer civs tend to NOT include a 3 vil card in age 1?
I thought about it, and recently understood why, as I looked into strats for various civs.

Given the immediate economic as well as long-term benefit from extra vils, there are very few cases where one would not pick 3 vils as a first card because it's just so much better than the other options. (3CDB/4vil/2SW are in the same vein)
VC boom being the only one that comes to mind as an exception.

It could very well be that Devs intentionally avoid placing such a shipment to incentivize different strategies, and we may well see them changing existing civs to not have a 3 vil card so they can go for something else instead, since most of the others tend to have genuine diversity when it comes to first card options.
Portugal being a good example.
Eco theory, Colonial Militia, Schooners are all good picks depending on strat.

What do you think? Do you agree? Would you like to see such a change?
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Post by Kaiserklein »

It's already established yeah. But you can't change this without ruining the balance at this point, and I don't think we need this on DE
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by fei123456 »

Well, there're some 4 vill shipments too.

I would delete the 2 setter wagon shipment, and give infinite 1 settler wagon "your following shipments costs -5% experience". This shipment can be sent infinite times, But experience reduction has a -40% limit.
By sending it 8 times, German shipments will need 110-40=70% experience, as fast as Spain.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Post by Kaiserklein »

lol
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Post by Riotcoke »

Yea I think Germany should only be given uhlan shipments instead of settlerwagon shipments, start age 1 with a 3 uhlan shipment instead.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by InaLeto »

I remember the patch where 2 Uhlans came with an Age I shipment that was moved from Age II. Great patch, my friend was amazed by my 2 Uhlans 2 minutes in game! :D
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by TranceGate »

In my opinion porto has a different design from other civs that have settler expeditions, better not to do such a thing otherwise you would have to change every civilization design that includes settlers cards and it isn't easy. Removing settlers wagon shipments to Germans is like removing 700w and 600w to English or worse.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Kaiserklein wrote:
20 May 2022, 11:28
It's already established yeah. But you can't change this without ruining the balance at this point, and I don't think we need this on DE
Who knows. Removing 3vil for some Euro civs in favour of 1 extra starting vil could provide some interesting gameplay results without breaking balance in a drastic way, accounting for the benefits provide

fei123456 wrote:
20 May 2022, 12:06
Well, there're some 4 vill shipments too.

I would delete the 2 setter wagon shipment, and give infinite 1 settler wagon "your following shipments costs -5% experience". This shipment can be sent infinite times, But experience reduction has a -40% limit.
By sending it 8 times, German shipments will need 110-40=70% experience, as fast as Spain.
Whatever you're smoking, I'd love some

TranceGate wrote:
20 May 2022, 13:07
In my opinion porto has a different design from other civs that have settler expeditions, better not to do such a thing otherwise you would have to change every civilization design that includes settlers cards and it isn't easy. Removing settlers wagon shipments to Germans is like removing 700w and 600w to English or worse.
Of course, it's a case by case issue. Germany probably being one of the few that can't afford to lose it without going against the theme.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by richard »

A strategy game doesnt nessecarly get better if you make it more complex. In this case (giving civs too many first shipment options equally strong) imo it obviously would turn into a desaster. Cant call it a strategy anymore if you randomly pick one of your first-shipment-options based on guessing what your opponent chooses out of his first-shipment-options. Random wins and losses all over the place, could as well right click AOE folder and delete. AOE dead.

It s better imo if you have a thought process like this: "I assume, my opponent goes for his strongest option, the 3V, prepare something based on this assumption and if he goes for a different option then it is weaker and i still have the chance to win via adapting to a Plan B which i also prepare. I also prepare the switch maybe (ask diarouga plz)".
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by Kaiserklein »

ShinkuroYukinari wrote:
20 May 2022, 18:42
Kaiserklein wrote:
20 May 2022, 11:28
It's already established yeah. But you can't change this without ruining the balance at this point, and I don't think we need this on DE
Who knows. Removing 3vil for some Euro civs in favour of 1 extra starting vil could provide some interesting gameplay results without breaking balance in a drastic way, accounting for the benefits provide
We've been trying to balance these civs for years while they had this shipment. This is literally as big as (if not bigger than) saying "let's rebalance germany without a 3 sw shipment", for each civ that has 3 vils.
I won't even try to list all the implications because there's too many, but just think about
- brits just shipping VC instead and barely being weaker
- germany and france losing the advantage of having bigger age 1 vil shipments
- otto suddenly loses 25% of their early eco
- how do you change the Chinese vil card

It would be like deleting 5+ years of balancing efforts and starting it all over again
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by Garja »

Why bother with the 3v card when most players haven't explored all the options of even just their main civ past the second age.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by DNLgibraltar »

It is true, it harms diversity. But as KaiserKlein said, there would be a need to re-work/rebalance most of the first shipments and by the pace of balance patches Legacy civilizations would be under under a hurricane for a year or so.

The best opportunity to address it has been gone: the release of D.E..They could've created some new cards with the guidance of pros. Right now, it's not worth the risk: the D.E. makes civs kind of "balanced" after several months but not smoothly balanced as legacy civs are.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

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Post by PatrickLFC »

richard wrote:
20 May 2022, 18:59
A strategy game doesnt nessecarly get better if you make it more complex.
Can someone remind the devs please?
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

richard wrote:
20 May 2022, 18:59
A strategy game doesnt nessecarly get better if you make it more complex. In this case (giving civs too many first shipment options equally strong) imo it obviously would turn into a desaster. Cant call it a strategy anymore if you randomly pick one of your first-shipment-options based on guessing what your opponent chooses out of his first-shipment-options. Random wins and losses all over the place, could as well right click AOE folder and delete. AOE dead.

It s better imo if you have a thought process like this: "I assume, my opponent goes for his strongest option, the 3V, prepare something based on this assumption and if he goes for a different option then it is weaker and i still have the chance to win via adapting to a Plan B which i also prepare. I also prepare the switch maybe (ask diarouga plz)".
Thing is, there are lots of potentially good Age 1 cards for many civs depending on situation, however they are all eclipsed by the 3v in sheer benefit.
-If you have tons of hunts, a hunting card to maximise its benefit
-defensive strats can go CM
-ATP on maps with a trade route
-hell, native cards on future Euro maps for such strats.

Just because the opponent's choice is also unpredictable doesn't mean you will be "randomly" picking. Instead you're exploring the map and your surroundings, and planning accordingly. That's what strategy is all about, afterall!
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Kaiserklein wrote:
20 May 2022, 19:48
ShinkuroYukinari wrote:
20 May 2022, 18:42
Kaiserklein wrote:
20 May 2022, 11:28
It's already established yeah. But you can't change this without ruining the balance at this point, and I don't think we need this on DE
Who knows. Removing 3vil for some Euro civs in favour of 1 extra starting vil could provide some interesting gameplay results without breaking balance in a drastic way, accounting for the benefits provide
We've been trying to balance these civs for years while they had this shipment. This is literally as big as (if not bigger than) saying "let's rebalance germany without a 3 sw shipment", for each civ that has 3 vils.
I won't even try to list all the implications because there's too many, but just think about
- brits just shipping VC instead and barely being weaker
- germany and france losing the advantage of having bigger age 1 vil shipments
- otto suddenly loses 25% of their early eco
- how do you change the Chinese vil card

It would be like deleting 5+ years of balancing efforts and starting it all over again
A valid concern, and why removal should be looked at on a case-by-case basis.
I'd say that the chinese shipment is in some ways fine, since youre required to invest into villages before making use of it, and that wood can go into TPs or whatever else tickles your fancy.
Brits in this context already have multiple options, albeit both are a cut above the rest. Do you ship 3vil for immediate benefit, or VC for a larger benefit, but one that takes time to amp up? Strategy!
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by SheepThief »

There should be more fighting in age 1. The explorer duels/treasure fights are cool, and allow quicker players to get an advantage -- there should be more. There should be at least one military unit that you can get that poses a serious threat in age 1. Kind of like a "drush" in AoE2 (send three militia forward in age 1 in order to kill one vil). Basically, take the big risk of slower age up in order to maybe kill enemy villager or building or something.

So yeah, if getting rid of the 3 vil card isn't an option, then I say add an age 1 card that "punishes" going for the 3 vil shipment. More death and destruction will disincentivize the 3 vils card. The only thing I would want more than 3 villagers is a shipment of useful units that I can kill my opponents villagers with. Maybe some kind of "angry mob" unit card, that does full damage to villagers and extra to houses or something. And comes with a few wardogs or something. The other idea I have is make the explorer upgrade cards (polar explorer, conquistador, agha, etc) give the explorer more damage against vils.. Because even if the explorer just idles vils in tc, then that is probably worth it.

The boring solution is just... NERF VILLAGERS
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by Garja »

solution to what, exactly?
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by dansil92 »

i agree that 3v was way too strong conceptually when compared to other age 1 cards, but just buffing everything else to match is a terrible idea and nerfing 3v is a shadowbuff to all civs without 3v, a balance nightmare either way
look wrote:
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with all due respect, this is the kind of comment that should not be taken into consideration.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by SheepThief »

Garja wrote:
23 May 2022, 21:43
solution to what, exactly?
every deck in the game sending the same first card
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by richard »

SheepThief wrote:
23 May 2022, 22:31
Garja wrote:
23 May 2022, 21:43
solution to what, exactly?
every deck in the game sending the same first card
As far as i understood so far, you think the game (AOE3) is too good and you want to solve that problem (aka make it worse). And the solution shall be to make more age I shipments equally strong to make them viable for shipping them first?
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by SheepThief »

richard wrote:
23 May 2022, 22:36
SheepThief wrote:
23 May 2022, 22:31
Garja wrote:
23 May 2022, 21:43
solution to what, exactly?
every deck in the game sending the same first card
As far as i understood so far, you think the game (AOE3) is too good and you want to solve that problem (aka make it worse). And the solution shall be to make more age I shipments equally strong to make them viable for shipping them first?
???

I think the game is great. All I said is that maybe adding a military unit shipment would give people another option to sending 3 vils. So basically you can chose to send 3 vils or instead send units that (if microed well) would allow you to kill enemy vils. Its sort of risk vs reward -- forego the 3 vils for a chance to kill enemy vils and cause havok. Because right now in the game, there is no Age 1 fighting really. Aside from explorer fights.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by Garja »

Ye but I don't see the problem with that.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by SheepThief »

Garja wrote:
23 May 2022, 23:00
Ye but I don't see the problem with that.
Don't you want more strategies in the game? The more strategies, the more unpredictable and new each game will be. And new stimuli produce more dopamine in your brain, so you will be more happy. It's like how a male rat gets tired of mating with the same female, but never gets tired of mating with a brand new female each day.

Don't you want to be more happy?
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by Garja »

I can make strategies from age2 onwards.
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Re: 3 Vil Shipment harms Strategy diversity

Post by SheepThief »

Garja wrote:
23 May 2022, 23:10
I can make strategies from age2 onwards.
yes this is the current situation.. i say instead of this, you make strategies in age1 :DDD

... do you not want to attack enemy early and have fights??

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