Team Game Balance Discussion

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Mexico ARatWithAHat
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Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by ARatWithAHat »

*I would like to clarify that I’m kind of a “casual” and that I don’t have a lot of experience in 1v1*

If you ever played 2v2 or 3v3 (I don’t play 4v4) you will know that the current state of Team Game is quite bad, so I would like to start by naming the biggest problem.

Rush is the name of the game

Rushing is by far the most powerful strategy in Team; meta rushing will defeat anything that isn’t also a meta rush.
Rushing should be a valid strategy but not an unbeatable one.

The culprits

Civilizations combinations

You ain’t beating the Abus Spam

The Ottomans are the most oppressive civilization in Team Games.
I think the biggest issue is that their “poor” scaling into the late game doesn’t matter at all when they have speed and the best skirmisher to rush you with.
Abus Gunners can mow down anything in their path and hit super fast, to the point that very few civilizations can counter an Ottoman/Any Civilization rush.

We have the same timing as Ottomans

The Russians, Haudenosaunee and Aztecs* have the speed (Messenger age up/12 villagers Russian age up), numbers, shipments (Haudenosaunee Scouting Party, Aztec Scouting Party, The Warrior age up; 6 Tomahawks, 6 and 7 Aennas, 4 Kanya Horsemen, 13 Strelets, 4 and 5 Cossacks, 8 and 9 Otontin Slingers, 5 Coyote Runners) and map control (Blockhouse and War Hut) on their side. By no means this civilizations are invincible
1st* Aztecs is the weakest of the three.

You may ask why I consider these three more problematic than the French or the British, the answer is quite simple: Unit shipments/Town Center Big Button/Map Control.***

Shipments

TEAM 1 Camp Builder (Ethiopians)

A crutch for “slower” civilizations and a boost for everyone else;

How do we fix this/This is even fixable?

See the answers below :uglylol: .

***Theoretically if every member of your team is European and ships Hire Irish Brigadiers, you could beat any rush, theoretically…

*I REGRET making the Irish brigadier theory, they are dog shit against meta rush WHY? 1. Because you’re wasting time gathering five hundred coin in transition (YOU need those Irish Brigadiers as soon as fucking possible), meanwhile the enemy team is making houses and gathering for market upgrades 2. 27 Irish Brigadiers will eat shit against two FREE skirmisher shipments from the meta civilizations (also try to beat the mobility of Aennas / Slingers / Strelets with 4 speed Musketeers).
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Australia LopsidedFluff
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by LopsidedFluff »

Personally, I disagree with the devs decision to give every euro civ a native shipment in age 2 (such as Irish brigadiers). This is probably more skewed to 1v1 however is also applicable in teams. This shipment allows all these civs to hold a rush and has encouraged a more turtle/boom style of gameplay which is very boring to play against.
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by duckzilla »

I don't understand how rushes are somehow too powerful if you can survive it by adapting, e.g. by sending Irish brigadiers. Playing a greedy playstyle doing a fast imperial should be a fragile thing to do. Semi-FFs are far less fragile to rushes as you do some units anyway. There's an abundance of strategies to counter rushes. What exactly is it that needs to be fixed?

Abus guns are strong units, especially when a player has enough time to micro them properly - which happens to be the case in team games. This might be the single thing where I can understand the criticism.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

Beati pauperes spiritu.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by Don Nameless »

GG EZ NO RE
Give me victory or i will give you defeat :kinggreen:
Mexico ARatWithAHat
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by ARatWithAHat »

duckzilla wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 12:10
I don't understand how rushes are somehow too powerful if you can survive it by adapting, e.g. by sending Irish brigadiers. Playing a greedy playstyle doing a fast imperial should be a fragile thing to do. Semi-FFs are far less fragile to rushes as you do some units anyway. There's an abundance of strategies to counter rushes. What exactly is it that needs to be fixed?
Fast Fortress eats shit against Rush IN TEAM; you do some units, but if the enemy team know his thing you’re eating 30 units (minimum) at the five/six minute mark; European civilizations simply doesn’t have a good enough shipment to counter a “meta” rush, the number of units it’s just too high; so best case scenario your team fends off the rush (if they’re able lol), but you lost a member and the enemy team has map control for ages and maybe Forward Base in your resources.
Mexico naotoakamura
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by naotoakamura »

duckzilla wrote:
22 Jan 2023, 12:10
I don't understand how rushes are somehow too powerful if you can survive it by adapting, e.g. by sending Irish brigadiers. Playing a greedy playstyle doing a fast imperial should be a fragile thing to do. Semi-FFs are far less fragile to rushes as you do some units anyway. There's an abundance of strategies to counter rushes. What exactly is it that needs to be fixed?

Abus guns are strong units, especially when a player has enough time to micro them properly - which happens to be the case in team games. This might be the single thing where I can understand the criticism.
Thats exactly the problem, is so easy for otos just spam obus and their teamates cover them. What amount of units can you make in a semi-FF to repel about 15-20 obus at 6 minutes plus 30-40 more units from the other 2 teams? (at least in 3vs3). Getting into age 3 doesnt give you any advantage what so ever because 8 skirms are not enoug, 2 cannons are barely usefull if you have all that mass inside your base, there are cases when you cant even send the cannos if the enemie team is somewhat smart and decided to destroy your houses.
The other thing to consider here is that the rush dont end just whit the inicial units, otos can age up easily if nothing is contesting the resourses in their part of the map (thing that you cant obviously do because of the inicial pressure). Once they hit age 3 can pressure with cannons and spais whit out losing barely anything while you are, in the best case scenario just massing up your army.
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

I think you're overblowing the value of rushes in team games. Speaking from experience, rushes are most often done by well-coordinated teams(and cheating clans, cough cough) that will more often than not stomp randoms matched together. Honestly, while team games can already be annoying to assemble, the game would benefit from splitting up queues for randoms and premade teams.

It's true that Abus are extremely powerful with protection, but usually you can find a way to get to them, or out-range them. As well, the Ottoman is mining a ton in age2 to afford those Abus and delaying his age3 significantly to reach the Abus doomstack. A teammate that goes cavalry can disrupt the Ottoman eco extremely hard via simple 3 Hussar raids, and if the Ottoman can't mine properly, then the Abus trades can easily end up in your favour due to their sheer cost. Not to mention that Ottomans are by default extremely sensitive to raids.
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Mexico naotoakamura
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by naotoakamura »

ShinkuroYukinari wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 09:58
I think you're overblowing the value of rushes in team games. Speaking from experience, rushes are most often done by well-coordinated teams(and cheating clans, cough cough) that will more often than not stomp randoms matched together. Honestly, while team games can already be annoying to assemble, the game would benefit from splitting up queues for randoms and premade teams.

It's true that Abus are extremely powerful with protection, but usually you can find a way to get to them, or out-range them. As well, the Ottoman is mining a ton in age2 to afford those Abus and delaying his age3 significantly to reach the Abus doomstack. A teammate that goes cavalry can disrupt the Ottoman eco extremely hard via simple 3 Hussar raids, and if the Ottoman can't mine properly, then the Abus trades can easily end up in your favour due to their sheer cost. Not to mention that Ottomans are by default extremely sensitive to raids.
Fisrt of all, there are to my knowlegde only 2 units that can outrange obus age 2, dutch skirmish, which are not killing obus, not by chance. And brit longbows, whom are extremly slow at dealing damage if they cannot stay in place, so, unless im losing something here, there is actually no way to "out range obus". Maaaaybe with Mexico´s cannons in age 2 but thats extreamly gimmiky.
Second, treating the enemy as bots which are just going to lose vills with 3 husars is kinda silly, to be honest sending 5 musk or the militia to cover your vills is more that enough to repel those horses, is not really a solution.
You are right about clans and coordinated team but sadly the player base is too small to divide it in the matchmaking :(
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by callentournies »

Historically otto's abus mass in team is scary but if they lose it, they're done for. Can't remass and can't age.

Historically, I still don't know DE. Remember when civs had weaknesses?
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United States of America iCourt
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by iCourt »

There are a lot of small factors I think that lead to Abus steam rolling most team games.

Otto's early age up.
Early Abus mass is about the same size as most civs inferior ranged inf mass (number wise not pop wise).
1 unit micro control
Having a TP start that easily can go into stage coach in team (6+ vills early)
Vills that don't cost food (aka not using near hunts up)
Abus being coin heavy (aka can't raid hunts easily)
Most maps having 4000+ coin steps from TC (not easy to raid)
Abus bypassing ranged inf armor.
Most age 2 ranged inf not being very cost efficient vs Abus (Xbow is lol usually)
Lots of civs to compliment with Otto's that have great age2 anti cav options (soldado/bow rider/carolean/etc)
Most maps have a fairly short rush distance and no natural choke points.
New heavy resource maps
Premade teams using discord vs random.
There's more... But it's just a lot of small things going for them that add up to a snowball effect that allows them to outscale.

The unit itself isn't amazing as noted by their mid game drop off in usefulness.
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by admiraljsmith »

It's relatively easy to kill the abus themselves if hard rushed. TC 2 shots them efficiently.

But why they have 5% units more range resist than on legacy I don't understand.
Or why they get increased range by age.

I would argue it's hard to raid otto early as they rely on crates early. Then idle TC time isn't such a big deal
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Serbia ShinkuroYukinari
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

naotoakamura wrote:
24 Jan 2023, 01:36
ShinkuroYukinari wrote:
23 Jan 2023, 09:58
I think you're overblowing the value of rushes in team games. Speaking from experience, rushes are most often done by well-coordinated teams(and cheating clans, cough cough) that will more often than not stomp randoms matched together. Honestly, while team games can already be annoying to assemble, the game would benefit from splitting up queues for randoms and premade teams.

It's true that Abus are extremely powerful with protection, but usually you can find a way to get to them, or out-range them. As well, the Ottoman is mining a ton in age2 to afford those Abus and delaying his age3 significantly to reach the Abus doomstack. A teammate that goes cavalry can disrupt the Ottoman eco extremely hard via simple 3 Hussar raids, and if the Ottoman can't mine properly, then the Abus trades can easily end up in your favour due to their sheer cost. Not to mention that Ottomans are by default extremely sensitive to raids.
Fisrt of all, there are to my knowlegde only 2 units that can outrange obus age 2, dutch skirmish, which are not killing obus, not by chance. And brit longbows, whom are extremly slow at dealing damage if they cannot stay in place, so, unless im losing something here, there is actually no way to "out range obus". Maaaaybe with Mexico´s cannons in age 2 but thats extreamly gimmiky.
Second, treating the enemy as bots which are just going to lose vills with 3 husars is kinda silly, to be honest sending 5 musk or the militia to cover your vills is more that enough to repel those horses, is not really a solution.
You are right about clans and coordinated team but sadly the player base is too small to divide it in the matchmaking :(
Alternatively Swedish Leather cannons, or French sending age 2 skirms. The options are surprisingly broad if you know where to look.
I reached top 400 in team games through usage of cavalry to give people hell. Especially versus players that focus overwhelmingly on the battlefield and do not watch home. You can definitely cripple even a gold miner's eco very well, let alone any normal one. It's not like japan or dutch that set up a labyrinth in a base thats nearly impossible to stop, and the easiest way to cripple the Ottoman is precisely via raids, given how slowly those vils train.
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Italy Don Nameless
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Re: Team Game Balance Discussion

Post by Don Nameless »

If you don't raid the ottoman you are simply cooperating with it, obviously if it doesn't let you do it don't raid it find other solutions and try again later :P
Give me victory or i will give you defeat :kinggreen:

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