Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

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Italy Garja
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Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

Dragoon 90 :food: 90 :coin:
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Hakkapelit 90 :food: 100 :coin:
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Prinz Chevaleur 110 :food: 90 :coin:
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Hakkapelit is basically the most expensive of the 3 (or close to it) and has the worst set of stats out of the three units. Even compared with the unique German goon which is supposed to have a similar design this one is simply better.
Notably, Hakka only have 10 range, the worst multiplier vs hand cav and an awful penalty against infantry. The strengths are supposed to be high melee attack and area damage which are basically useless due to mentioned weaknesses.
I think it's clear that the unit has been overnerfed in attempt to please the raging players back when hakka were considered OP. Just remove the penalty and give them a standard 12 range. The unit already costs more than goons and that should be reflected somewhere in the stats without penalties to compensate for it.
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United States of America jap_jon
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by jap_jon »

What about more hp instead?
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by PatrickLFC »

You are way underestimating how good ranged area effect damage is, especially in large mass. Remove the area damage and then think about standardising the range
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Italy Garja
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

jap_jon wrote:
24 Jan 2024, 03:08
What about more hp instead?
HP is not the problem, plus is the least relevant stat for the goon purpose. The problem is that the unit can't kill cav well while kiting and it also costs more than goons while being worse.
PatrickLFC wrote:
24 Jan 2024, 03:32
You are way underestimating how good ranged area effect damage is, especially in large mass. Remove the area damage and then think about standardising the range
Honestly who cares about area damage, take it off instantly lol and give me 12 range.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by fei123456 »

It's Sweden eco that makes old hakkapelit imbalanced. Carolean is a bad musket too, but Sweden can mass them like strelets.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by LopsidedFluff »

fei123456 wrote:
24 Jan 2024, 07:02
It's Sweden eco that makes old hakkapelit imbalanced. Carolean is a bad musket too, but Sweden can mass them like strelets.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that caros are bad cause they are probably one of the best musks if not the best. They have to be good cause Sweden doesn't have skirms.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

LopsidedFluff wrote:
24 Jan 2024, 08:59
fei123456 wrote:
24 Jan 2024, 07:02
It's Sweden eco that makes old hakkapelit imbalanced. Carolean is a bad musket too, but Sweden can mass them like strelets.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that caros are bad cause they are probably one of the best musks if not the best. They have to be good cause Sweden doesn't have skirms.
Caroleans are nowhere near being the best musk. In fact they're quite bad for the cost and quite bad in musk vs musk regardless. They lose to all musks but the unupgraded Euro and (maybe, haven't tested) the Ethiopia one.
As soon as the Euro musk get the HP upgrade, Caroleans lose against that too (and I mean HP card for both sides). They also only have 3 relatively bad upgrades, no combat card.

As for Sweden eco, what was last time you guys played the civ? Even with the greediest build (4torp 700w ironwork) you can only realistically spam from 2 raxes until like 12-13 minutes. Brits can add a 3rd rax way sooner and same for Japan with the bushido tech. Not to mention that Sweden playstyle is not even viable anymore.

Back to the main topic, Hakkapelit were overnerfed for no other reason that to appease people complaints. In no world should a unit with that cost have those penalties. If someone has contact with devs he should point it out. It's one of those blatant imba situation that should never be a thing (higher cost and worse stats).
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by kevinitalien »

a 3 range ugprade for a 2.5 ROF musk is not bad card tho really, its quite insane for me in musk vs musk, also ye hakka are not great they just need a bit more atk imo ( tho hakka have many card for them but you don't have the space in deck for it, thats sucks )
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Italy Garja
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

Yes the range card is the only good one and possibly kinda broken in design. +10% atk and only +2range would be more reasonable keeping all musk units within the 14 range threshold.
Hakkas stats are mostly fine except for the range which is unbearable since dragoons in general already have hard time lockin on targets and with 10 range the unit becomes non functional at kiting.
Also the penalty against infantry is underserved because what's the point of having higher attack if not to beat infantry under the right circumstances? Not to mention any negative multiplier is the epitome of anti-design.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by RenektonSion »

But the base Hakkapelita is not very good, however it scales much better, because it has many cards that affect it also by having a double tag of Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry, it benefits from several improvements including the arsenal which is exclusive for heavy cavalry , this affects him, it's stupid

The concept went to shit when goons made it, but the unit itself is very good, especially at age 4, it is very noticeable
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Italy Garja
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

Well ye the design just doesn't work anymore. Now it's just a dragoon with low range and worse multi vs cav. Also penalties against the units it is supposed to do better against compared to goons.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by callentournies »

@Garja put blueberries in your deck
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young child’s
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

blueberries suck balls, it's 4v on 20 torps, I have it in the mirror deck and don't think there is even a chance to send it
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by RenektonSion »

Take away the area damage so it has a better range and multiplier is fine
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Madonna »

RenektonSion wrote:
02 Feb 2024, 13:13
But the base Hakkapelita is not very good, however it scales much better, because it has many cards that affect it also by having a double tag of Heavy Cavalry and Light Cavalry, it benefits from several improvements including the arsenal which is exclusive for heavy cavalry , this affects him, it's stupid

The concept went to shit when goons made it, but the unit itself is very good, especially at age 4, it is very noticeable
This used to be the case, but as they are no longer tagged as heavy cavalry they don't get affected by the cavalry cuirass upgrade (10% hp) from the arsenal. The description of the tech is misleading as it says: "hand cavalry hitpoints increased." which would affected hakkas but right after it shows the actual effect which is: "heavy cavalry: +10% hp" which does not affect hakkas as they are only classed as light cavalry and hand cavalry.

It is true that all the cavalry HP cards do also affect hakkas but I think for a goon HP only cards is not necessarily the most useful. Maybe they could merge trample tactics card with ranged cavalry combat or something similar. Although that would probably need some adjustment to balance for team games where hakkas can be very deadly. The problem is in 1v1 sup you rarely even get to send any upgrade cards because you're so busy shipping crates or unit shipments to survive.

Another angle I would love for them to look at is boosting swedish xbows somehow. Either through having the hand cavalry/hand infantry card split into another card with archaic HP/combat card or do some kind of Boyars card with it boosting xbows and hakkas only. That would run into the problem of hakkas only being able to be made in age 2 through sending a card but I still think it would be an interesting idea to play with. The problem for sweden is their lack of viable alternative strategies which is why I'm so happy they boosted the age 2 hakka card to send 3 hakkas. It gives Sweden some desperately needed options. you could potentially also boost hakka range by 1 extra range with snaplock because that card right now is extremely useless for hakkas.
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Re: Hakkapelit has been overnerfed

Post by Garja »

Hakkas simply can't kill pikes, think that says enough.

Also ffs remove Dnpr Basin from the standard pool. The map has 4 tin mines and then a gold mine which is 1 minute away from every other location in the map. Also in aoe3 having a river for boats is no bueno.
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