MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

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United States of America Squamiger
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MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

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Post by Squamiger »

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Time for a new MU of the Month Week!

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I've been playing Dutch and Ports lately so I've been thinking about this matchup. Two civs with a lot of potential for turtling and booming, but also some cheeky timing plays early game. Ports with strong water potential, but Dutch with possibly one of the best anti-water builds in the game, where you ship 3 fluyts and 1 frig back to back. Both civs also probably just want to tech heavily into dragoons/ruyters and spam artillery in late game, but can Dutch end the game early with a Logistician rush? Could Ports throw off Dutch tempo with a 500f age up, 10 hussar raid early in age 2?

Dutch vs. Portuguese
Flag_Dutch-3957201329.png
vs.
ports.png
What is the meta between these two civs currently?
What is the Dutch player's goal in this MU, and what is the Portuguese player's goal?
Which civ is favored, and which civ is at a disadvantage?
What maps favor which civ?
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United States of America musketeer925
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Re: MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

Post by musketeer925 »

I didn't find any guides on the strategy wall with info on this matchup. :sad:
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Re: MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

Post by callentournies »

Depends if port does an 8 halb 3 organ aggro ff or not. If yes, they kill a bank but probably lose. If port goes water Dutch is simply too slow to punish before it pays off, so vs water id do a 7 bank FI (church card in transition to III, trade wood for banks, 1kw 2x facts. But unpunished water ought to win all.

Normal port ff is also so slow (w/mass) you can probably get away with an FI with 2HC shipment and strads from church card in deck. Unless they go for a minimally defending 3 organ push while you’re aging. You’d win if stay age 3.

Port can outscale 5 banks over time and they need a 3 unit comp or lose the skirm war.

I’d rather be Dutch in this MU. I think Dutch can also stay III (safer?) and take better trades with unit up cards, once dealing with 3 organs. The MU surely revolves around whenever the 3 organs arrive and how much damage they do.

On a high tp map port can probably still do some rendition of 10/10 ATP stage and spam age 2.

I think I recall besting chef in this MU as Dutch but he just went goon organ and lost to ruyter HC or smth.
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Re: MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

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Post by Garja »

When it comes to standard play like semi FF war (Port FF is too passive imo and it plays in Dutch hands) I always liked being on Port side since they win in the long run and it's hard for Dutch to prevent the game going late stage. In this context I think it's important to clarify a misconception: Ports don't need a 3 unit comp because they don't lose the skirm war. Cassas (and similar units like Sharpshooters) have 40%rr exactly to win the skirm war (as well as performing better against HI). They especially do win because of their cost (cheaper than skirms) and because on DE they got +1 base damage and the HP and damage cards already in age3. It is up to Dutch to usually add huss in order to win a fight decisively and finish the game before it goes late. I guess with the 5huss card and with skirms inflictign less damage against hand cav the huss switch may actually work in DE (in legacy it didn't use to work and whoever cav switched used to lose this MU). That doesn't even consider organs in the equation, and tbf I don't know if the 3 organ change is better or worse for Ports in standard play meta (hard to spare 300c for the card while constantly fighting).
There are however two other points down the line when Dutch can still win. Point one is if Ports run out of mines while Dutch can use the bank buffer to produce couple more unit batches. Second point is when Port are maxed out on vills and despite having successfully switched to mills and plants they simply don't have enough pop space to fight Dutch 150 army pop.

Now, I'm pretty sure in DE the MU doesn't play in the classic EP way anymore. Maybe it still the best play? idk

The 1010 FF with 3 organs seems quite annoying but I trust Callen if he says it doesn't work. The fort in your face at 6minutes also seems incredibly annoying (it used to be annoying even back then in nilla) but I guess with the mortar card in age3 now that problem should be solved.

Speaking of which, the mortar card may also be the difference between a losing and winning (semi)FF for ruyter+falc against Port water. Back then that strat was dubious and would fail a significant amount of times (most I'd say) against Port water laming (camping on water and using CM effectively). Now water itself is nerfed, CM card is nerfed, and that mortar card - maybe after some falcs - probably wins it for Dutch.

Idk about Dutch FI either. It involves church card etc. so really not my playstyle. All I know is that going FI vs Ports wasn't that good because Ports don't mind doing the same but idk, DE is different. In DE also you can't realistically hope to win with age III vs age IV unless you got some considerable advantage somehow.
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Re: MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

Post by Hazza54321 »

this is a weird one because its up to ports to dictate the pace of the game with the strat (stagecoach, organ halb ff push, sea, atp ff, cav semi , cav + bow vs rax cav + pike vs stable) .
Port scale better in terms of eco but they of course run out of map so early compared to dutch and if dutch get to 120-150 military pop it feels like ports can never win a fight because their units are so much worse so they just lose. So port need to transition onto mills earlier, they outgather more but suffer militarily, so port has to somehow delay the game long enough to respam after the 120 + military pop fight is over or they just lose. Dutch will have more units early fortress too so they usually have the tempo advantage once 1 or 2 shipments come in but if ports can delay that or get a great trade with organs than they should be in an advantageous position.

The combat cards are also just so much better for dutch
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Re: MU of the Week: Dutch vs Ports

Post by Garja »

I'm not sure Dutch gets more units in early fortress. Port semi is pretty much the same as Fre one, and if Dutch go for like more cav and 8pikes you usually make a 2nd batch of huss and hold with mm. Then in age3 you can send a unit shipment or 1k wood.
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