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France Kaiserklein
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7231
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

02 Jan 2018, 23:37

Inst wrote:We are talking past each other, don't you know? The entire name of the thread is "livestock fix", i.e, livestock is not working as it should. I have made no argument that building livestock is "good" in its present implementation either in RE or EP, my point is that if you significantly decrease the base fattening time from 5 minutes to 3 minutes with no other changes, you threaten to make livestock broken.

Like for every change, testing is required. You can argue that any change could make a mechanic broken.
Anyway, I can tell you that making sheep that would get fat in 3 min would still be garbage, because, as I showed a ton of times, you barely get any food from making sheep. Tbh, you would usually always have steel traps, and then like DSY showed, you don't even get any extra resources from making sheep... So even with sheep getting fat instantly, it would not be interesting.

Inst wrote:Let's assume 2 cards; Cows, Fulling Mills. For 80 food, in 3 minutes, you get 360 net food. Even when you factor in VS and build costs, this translates to 2 food per second for a cost of only 80 food, and the 3 minutes is survivable. Add in the fattening rate upgrade, you get 2.6 food / second with a 140 second fattening time. Add in the stockyards card to the fattening rate, you get 120 second fattening times with an effective 3.2 food / second generation rate. Without Fulling Mills, the base yield rate is 1.5 food / second assuming .75 food per VS, and .94 / second with all hunt upgrades. With the fattening rate upgrade, it comes out to 1.2 food / second, and with stockyards on top of it, it's 1.51 food / second.

I mean, if you want to change Livestock that way, be my guest, I am just warning you you'll end up having to nerf related cards (probably Fulling Mills) later on.

Again, you can't just send this kind of shit cards in sup, you will be behind against any decent player. And btw it's really easy to scout a pen, and to adapt. So discussing these numbers is actually useless. That's why I said we could let people train cows without needing to send a card, because sending a card for that is just not viable.

Inst wrote:And FYI, I am very livestock intensive, and I, in 90% of games, capture the majority of the livestock.

I mean, FYI, you're pr 15. I would probably get more than 80% of the livestock in 99% of my games against you, and I don't see what that brings to the discussion.
And if you're so "livestock intensive", why can't you see that making all the livestock have half their food cap is going to make it impossible to build a pen when you get like 8+ cows/yaks on the map? Which, again, is the only competitive way of using the livestock pen :/ and your changes would kill that.

Inst wrote:My real objective is that livestock booming should be a viable strategy for British, Iroquois, and especially the Chinese, who have no real economic bonuses worth talking about. A viable livestock boom means Chinese Colonial is now workable. As is, trying Chinese livestock (I'd love to see Aizamk trying the weak Chinese livestock strat, maybe he'd manage to pull it off even with 6 minute fattening times) is only a comedy strategy worthwhile only vs noobs (and maybe British and Japanese, since they tend to boom heavily, but Livestock Boom is stronger than Japanese shrine boom).

Well yea I see your point, but for the 100th time, your changes don't make livestock booming viable...
Also China would still go age 3, even if they could produce livestock. They could probably go for a semi-ff. China sucks in mid-late colo for other reasons than their eco anyway (basically they have no cav and their anti cav is shit).
Livestock boom is shit compared to shrine boom btw. Stop pulling stuff like that out of your nowhere.
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7542
ESO: Garja

03 Jan 2018, 00:19

Livestock cards are simply not intended for supremacy.
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United States of America Hidddy_
ESOC Community Team
Posts: 379
ESO: Hidalgito
Location: Miami, Florida, USA

03 Jan 2018, 00:45

queenofdestiny wrote:Lifestock boom should be only available for treaty! In Sup it's usless to ship all those cards etc.
Lifestock is fine how it is.
If you want lifestock in Sup play Sioux and ship bisons.
Or play on PD and take the cows around the map and then take a native post to faster fatten and make skirmis from it.

sounds op :hmm:
De Funk
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Hungary Dsy
Posts: 912

03 Jan 2018, 12:33

1. case Ok lets assume EP gives option to train cows without card:

So you pay 800f + 400f cows
Get 5000f

Collecting up 5000f takes 2500s
Villager gather in 2500s = 2730f

So in the end:
Win = 5000f
Lose = 4000f

Conclusion: You lose -1200f early to get +1000f late.

2. case Lets assume you have fullning mills (btw this card wasnt even viable for french when i checked) + cows without card
collecting 5000f takes 625s
Villager gather in 625s = 682f


But in this case fattening time is also important. Since you sent a card.
I think base fattening rate is 1 you can upgrade to 1.2 with upgrade and upgrade.
So time they fatten 400s and 333s. Kinda.
If you send +20% hunt upgrade instead with 14 vills on food, means 2.35f/s 940f or 782f

Conclusion: You invest 1200f early to get 5000-1900-940f late
You invest 1800f early to get 5000-1900-782f late (with the pen upgrade)

late: until you eat 10 cows
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Posts: 912

03 Jan 2018, 12:59

So invest -1200 food + send a card and 400s later you get +2160f.
The best case with free cows + fullning mills.

400s is 6,66min.
United States of America Inst
Posts: 130
ESO: Inst

03 Jan 2018, 15:22 ... 32676,0,10

Basically, without Fulling Mills, livestock should be considered to generate 50% of their nominal generation rate, since you have to spend VS harvesting them. With Fulling Mills, it's roughly 87.5%, since the harvesting rate is much faster.

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