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United States of America Papist
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ESO: Papist

11 Nov 2018, 03:26

iwillspankyou wrote:
Frost Bite wrote:Yea we got a lot of cheaters. Move on!

tbh, we should adress this, and not move on so easy :!:


Unfortunately, we don't really have a way to address it. We just have to hope that MS will implement better anti-cheat in the definitive edition.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
No Flag querty
Musketeer
Posts: 89

11 Nov 2018, 12:38

Hazza54321 wrote:cheaters post cheating accusations now?



Wait who are you talking about?

And why is my screenshot deleted?
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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ESO: EAGLEMUT
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11 Nov 2018, 14:28

querty wrote:why is my screenshot deleted?

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=15832#p333862
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momuuu wrote:theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
No Flag querty
Musketeer
Posts: 89

12 Nov 2018, 21:53

Just got 20 minutes of my life stolen by a cheater again in a 2v2. So the following might sound a little bit 'involved':

I don't get this to be honest. Why is this community protecting cheaters?

I mean, I could understand this approach if I would just have said player "xyz" is cheating without providing any evidence. But first, I didn't even bring his name forward to blame him and second, I provided a screenshot without ANY reason to question weather this guy was cheating or not.

I understand that we don't want to throw dirt at people, BUT:

Let's face it: People who are hacking are destroying the fun in many games out there, and if we as players cannot even agree to fight them, why even bothering building a community in the first place? This is the most straight forward thing for a community of players isn't it?
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Netherlands edeholland
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12 Nov 2018, 22:53

If you post a screenshot without any visible names, it won't be removed. That way you can genuinely ask whether somebody is cheating based on the graphs. You can also post whatever evidence you have in a thread in the Small Claims Court board. Those threads are not visible to the public. No evidence will be deleted from there.
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Jan Siegel wrote:What PR is @XeeleeFlower?
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New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 7731
ESO: Funnu
Location: Ramadanistan

12 Nov 2018, 22:54

querty wrote:Just got 20 minutes of my life stolen by a cheater again in a 2v2. So the following might sound a little bit 'involved':

I don't get this to be honest. Why is this community protecting cheaters?

I mean, I could understand this approach if I would just have said player "xyz" is cheating without providing any evidence. But first, I didn't even bring his name forward to blame him and second, I provided a screenshot without ANY reason to question weather this guy was cheating or not.

I understand that we don't want to throw dirt at people, BUT:

Let's face it: People who are hacking are destroying the fun in many games out there, and if we as players cannot even agree to fight them, why even bothering building a community in the first place? This is the most straight forward thing for a community of players isn't it?
Garja only knows. Oh, and ESOC...
"Hazza's always playing NR10 to legitimize his crying about EP being NR10. How sad!"
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New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 7731
ESO: Funnu
Location: Ramadanistan

12 Nov 2018, 22:55

Papist wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Frost Bite wrote:Yea we got a lot of cheaters. Move on!

tbh, we should adress this, and not move on so easy :!:


Unfortunately, we don't really have a way to address it. We just have to hope that MS will implement better anti-cheat in the definitive edition.
We definitely do. It's just that two individuals have decided to deny it. Just ESOC things.
"Hazza's always playing NR10 to legitimize his crying about EP being NR10. How sad!"
No Flag querty
Musketeer
Posts: 89

13 Nov 2018, 11:37

edeholland wrote:If you post a screenshot without any visible names, it won't be removed. That way you can genuinely ask whether somebody is cheating based on the graphs. You can also post whatever evidence you have in a thread in the Small Claims Court board. Those threads are not visible to the public. No evidence will be deleted from there.


I think you don't get my point

This guy had 28 Cdbs after 02:07 Minutes. You can see it on my screenshot and on simple elo ladders.

I am not interested in "genuinely asking whether somebody is cheating" but want to warn people about a cheating scumbag. Of course, this guy has played against other players again by now.
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Norway iwillspankyou
Jaeger
iwillspankyou
Posts: 3502

13 Nov 2018, 12:01

edeholland wrote:Redacted the accusations out of this thread. Feel free to discuss the subject of cheaters, but without accusing other players. If you really want to share your screenshots, make a thread in the Small Claims Court.

I know there is nothing YOU can do about the cheaters. YOU do not have to protect them though. Would feel better if WE, who would never dream of cheating, felt that the topic was taken more seriously by YOU/esoc staff.
If there is a screen shot that a person made 20 cdbs in 2 min, its clearly a cheat, no doubth about it. Frankly its not an accusation of cheating, its more a FACT of cheating.
Why should WE not be aware of these obviously cheaters??
The optics of this is not good imo, and I wish that YOU/esoc staff, would change your minds about it.
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Sweden Gendarme
Jaeger
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ESO: Gendarme

13 Nov 2018, 12:18

Ever heard of photoshop, bro?
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
No Flag querty
Musketeer
Posts: 89

13 Nov 2018, 12:39

Gendarme wrote:Ever heard of photoshop, bro?


So I also hacked into Elo Ladders to change the post game statistics?
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Sweden Gendarme
Jaeger
Donator 02
Posts: 4765
ESO: Gendarme

13 Nov 2018, 12:45

I do not know who you are, little one. The spanker is whom I was talking to.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Armenia Sargsyan
Howdah
Posts: 1159
ESO: Sargsyan
Location: Armenia
GameRanger ID: 2106182

13 Nov 2018, 13:20

Gendarme wrote:I do not know who you are, little one. The spanker is whom I was talking to.

Can i download my photoshopped screenshots into agecom ?
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France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
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Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

13 Nov 2018, 13:24

Why would you redact that... This guy was 100% cheating, you can check it in 10s with agecomm stats. Like Iwillspankyou said, it's not even an accusation, just a fact.
And esoc does look ridiculous when they basically protect cheaters.
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Netherlands edeholland
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13 Nov 2018, 13:44

We redact it because not every case is obvious and there is currently no team that wants to be responsible for checking the evidence and maintaining a public cheater list and is also knowledgeable and unbiased enough to make the right decision.
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Jan Siegel wrote:What PR is @XeeleeFlower?
CometK wrote:pr21, but her brother is pr36 (goodspeed)
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Sweden Gendarme
Jaeger
Donator 02
Posts: 4765
ESO: Gendarme

13 Nov 2018, 13:46

What happened to guilty until proven innocent? This is 2018 ffs
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
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Location: Paris
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13 Nov 2018, 14:01

edeholland wrote:We redact it because not every case is obvious and there is currently no team that wants to be responsible for checking the evidence and maintaining a public cheater list and is also knowledgeable and unbiased enough to make the right decision.

Not every case is obvious but this one is. There was barely any evidence to check, the guy had 20+ cdbs at 2 min. Plus, quite a few other threads with screenshots about cheaters didn't get redacted, so it's not consistent.

And anyway the real reason is that you guys decided that having a cheater list is bad because it brings negativity and witch hunts, not that you don't have people to care about the list (if you would ask for volunteers, I'm sure it would be easy to find. I volunteered myself already). Meanwhile, it just looks like you're protecting cheaters more than anything else, and people spam threads about cheaters (which does bring negativity) instead of simply pming staff to get a new cheater name on the list.
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Great Britain boyu
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ESO: boyu
Location: Edinburgh, UK

13 Nov 2018, 14:10

edeholland wrote:We redact it because not every case is obvious and there is currently no team that wants to be responsible for checking the evidence and maintaining a public cheater list and is also knowledgeable and unbiased enough to make the right decision.


I don't understand why there is supposedly not enough manpower to make a list of cheats, while at the same time mods are so quick to redact evidence – in this case proof – of cheating. Makes no sense.
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Netherlands edeholland
ESOC Community Team
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Posts: 3150
ESO: edeholland
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GameRanger ID: 4053888

13 Nov 2018, 14:27

Kaiserklein wrote:
edeholland wrote:We redact it because not every case is obvious and there is currently no team that wants to be responsible for checking the evidence and maintaining a public cheater list and is also knowledgeable and unbiased enough to make the right decision.

Not every case is obvious but this one is obvious. There was barely any evidence to check, the guy had 20+ cdbs at 2 min. Plus, quite a few other threads with screenshots about cheaters didn't get redacted, so it's not consistent.

Who is going to decide which case is obvious and which isn't obvious? If I am going to leave everything I think is obvious, it will be different from what all other (Comm Team) members think. No single person should be the judge, which is why I redact every post and don't make the judgement myself.

Kaiserklein wrote:And anyway the real reason is that you guys decided that having a cheater list is bad because it brings negativity and witch hunts, not that you don't have people to care about the list (if you would ask for volunteers, I'm sure it would be easy to find. I volunteered myself already). Meanwhile, it just looks like you're protecting cheaters more than anything else.

The negativity and witch hunts thing is indeed a common argument and something that some (staff) members share. I personally think that won't be an issue as long as the accusations are properly dealt with (anonymous evidence, posted in a private board and judged by a team). I encourage you to create a thread to propose a team to the community and ask them if they trust this team with handling a ban list. Even if the staff/community decides they don't want a public ban list (which I think is unlikely, but I haven't polled it recently), you can always create a server with that team and post a ban list in an online Google Doc.

Saying we are protecting cheaters is telling half the truth. We are also protecting fair players from being falsely accused as well as protecting the positivity and environment in the community.
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Jan Siegel wrote:What PR is @XeeleeFlower?
CometK wrote:pr21, but her brother is pr36 (goodspeed)
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Netherlands edeholland
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13 Nov 2018, 14:42

boyu wrote:
edeholland wrote:We redact it because not every case is obvious and there is currently no team that wants to be responsible for checking the evidence and maintaining a public cheater list and is also knowledgeable and unbiased enough to make the right decision.


I don't understand why there is supposedly not enough manpower to make a list of cheats, while at the same time mods are so quick to redact evidence – in this case proof – of cheating. Makes no sense.

Because it's not the same thing, basically.
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--- h2o Rip ---

Jan Siegel wrote:What PR is @XeeleeFlower?
CometK wrote:pr21, but her brother is pr36 (goodspeed)
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France Kaiserklein
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Location: Paris
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13 Nov 2018, 14:49

edeholland wrote:Who is going to decide which case is obvious and which isn't obvious? If I am going to leave everything I think is obvious, it will be different from what all other (Comm Team) members think. No single person should be the judge, which is why I redact every post and don't make the judgement myself.

"Obvious" means that you don't have to decide anything. It's just obvious. It's a fact, there's nothing to judge.
Maybe you redact every post, but a lot of accusations on esoc haven't been redacted, so it's stupid.

edeholland wrote:The negativity and witch hunts thing is indeed a common argument and something that some (staff) members share. I personally think that won't be an issue as long as the accusations are properly dealt with (anonymous evidence, posted in a private board and judged by a team). I encourage you to create a thread to propose a team to the community and ask them if they trust this team with handling a ban list. Even if the staff/community decides they don't want a public ban list (which I think is unlikely, but I haven't polled it recently), you can always create a server with that team and post a ban list in an online Google Doc.

Why would I make yet another thread? The question of cheating accusations was raised multiple times already, by myself and by others, and ESOC never changed its mind about it. I doubt one more thread is gonna change anything, sounds like another waste of time. Tbh I am most likely already wasting my time right now by typing this.
And making a list that isn't on ESOC is useless because it will have no legitimacy. Why would people trust a random list?

edeholland wrote:Saying we are protecting cheaters is telling half the truth. We are also protecting fair players from being falsely accused as well as protecting the positivity and environment in the community.

By removing 100% obvious proofs, you are protecting cheaters, and no one else. And if anything it brings more negativity, as this thread (and a ton of others) can attest.
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Austria supahons
Skirmisher
Posts: 171
ESO: supahons

13 Nov 2018, 16:01

You could just make a hidden folder like the real-life-disscussion is in the off-topic atm. Then it wouldn't show up in the active thread list. Leave it unmoderated. (= no more resources spent)
To prevent a witchhunt you just make a rule in this folder, that the discussion should be civilized otherwise 3 days ban without any further explaination. Then it wouldn't get out of control, if ppl really can't behave and you really have to step in.

Just drop the accusation in this folder and if somebody has time to look at it, it will be taken care of. Write that if nobody has time for this - then it is because you aren't microsoft in the explaination-thread of the folder ;)
accusation template: screenshot + agecomm link?
Then new posters don't feel ignored and you save a lot of time, if the amount of accusations isn't too huge (-> otherwise no resources for this). Then you don't have to explain why you have redacted it everytime and this disscussion starts again and again with new people joining the forums.

One of my teachers once said: "good costumer service is, when the costumer can choke somebody, if it isn't working." --> Deleting posts and starting this discussion everytime in the active part of the forum again or ignoring this topic, certainly doesn't create positivity.
"Summit and abyss — these are now comprised together!"
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Netherlands edeholland
ESOC Community Team
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Posts: 3150
ESO: edeholland
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GameRanger ID: 4053888

13 Nov 2018, 16:16

Kaiserklein wrote:
edeholland wrote:The negativity and witch hunts thing is indeed a common argument and something that some (staff) members share. I personally think that won't be an issue as long as the accusations are properly dealt with (anonymous evidence, posted in a private board and judged by a team). I encourage you to create a thread to propose a team to the community and ask them if they trust this team with handling a ban list. Even if the staff/community decides they don't want a public ban list (which I think is unlikely, but I haven't polled it recently), you can always create a server with that team and post a ban list in an online Google Doc.

Why would I make yet another thread? The question of cheating accusations was raised multiple times already, by myself and by others, and ESOC never changed its mind about it. I doubt one more thread is gonna change anything, sounds like another waste of time. Tbh I am most likely already wasting my time right now by typing this.
And making a list that isn't on ESOC is useless because it will have no legitimacy. Why would people trust a random list?

I am not telling you to make a thread polling whether people want a ban list or not, it seems clear to me that most (non-staff?) members want one. I am suggesting you make a thread where you present a team of people who want to maintain the ban list. The most important thing is that the community trusts this team to make the right decisions. It doesn't matter whether the list is posted on ESOC, a Google Doc or in a "anti-cheat" Discord server, what matters is that the community is supporting the idea & the team.

If there is a team of people who wants to do this, I will give you a shitload of screenshots, recordings and YouTube videos you can analyse. Whether the results of your findings can be implemented in EP, posted on ESOC or just posted outside of ESOC is something I can't currently tell you (because I can't & shouldn't decide that by myself), but it shouldn't matter. A cheat list shared in Hazza's Team EP Games Discord server should be just as legitimate as one shared on this website, as long as the team & their practices are legit.
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Jan Siegel wrote:What PR is @XeeleeFlower?
CometK wrote:pr21, but her brother is pr36 (goodspeed)
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Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 522
ESO: HUMMAN

13 Nov 2018, 17:04

also one thing with cheaters is that most of them get free accounts and smurf whenever they want. So a ban list is not a true solution. One solution would be requiring 100 10 min+ games in order to QS and first week no access to QS, with given cheater-bans. However this would require an offical support or increase in the popularity of EP QS.
Argentina CaRp
Crossbow
Posts: 22
ESO: _Attaque_77_CARP
Game: AoE Online

13 Nov 2018, 17:06

Kaiserklein wrote:And anyway the real reason is that you guys decided that having a cheater list is bad because it brings negativity and witch hunts, not that you don't have people to care about the list (if you would ask for volunteers, I'm sure it would be easy to find. I volunteered myself already). Meanwhile, it just looks like you're protecting cheaters more than anything else.

The negativity and witch hunts thing is indeed a common argument and something that some (staff) members share. I personally think that won't be an issue as long as the accusations are properly dealt with (anonymous evidence, posted in a private board and judged by a team). I encourage you to create a thread to propose a team to the community and ask them if they trust this team with handling a ban list. Even if the staff/community decides they don't want a public ban list (which I think is unlikely, but I haven't polled it recently), you can always create a server with that team and post a ban list in an online Google Doc.

Saying we are protecting cheaters is telling half the truth. We are also protecting fair players from being falsely accused as well as protecting the positivity and environment in the community.[/quote]

protecting fair players?
I was blocked by half the community. for a post of the lord hazza123.. in a game that did he not play.

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14177&p=300080&hilit=carp#p300080

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but that is not important for the "redact"

obvious that try to upload rec and ss but that was eliminated
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