India Ashvin
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10 Nov 2018, 17:22

When you make cav and idle their vills, while also taking damage from their TC fire and ultimately losing your cav one by one, when would you believe your cav is paying off for the loss of resources your opponent did? How much do you have to idle their vills and what are the ways to idle their vills while taking least damage?

PS: Assuming they're going for some greedy build or naked FF agenda where you can just go ram your cav in their base.
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Sweden Gendarme
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10 Nov 2018, 17:24

When you make cav and idle your opponent's vills and he's surprised of your strong raid (for his settlers dead) and says "nice raid" even though you only z-moved uhlans...my respond always: "thank you for forgetting great coat" :D
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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10 Nov 2018, 17:25

id just go in an out so they have to use apm poping vills in and out of tc and they most likely only get 1 shot if u poke, sometimes zero and they garrisoned for nothing, jsut keep poking in an out of tc range
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India Ashvin
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10 Nov 2018, 17:47

But my question is, for how long do you have to keep their vills idle to cover for the cost of your lost cav?
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India Ashvin
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10 Nov 2018, 23:04

Like i did try to idle vills using rattan shields and I was pretty successful in doing so. But idk, with cav, it kinda feels like I'm committing too much, and loosing many cav and doing very less damage to his eco.
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No Flag ovi12
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11 Nov 2018, 04:01

I've wanted to do these calculations for many months. I've finally done it, and reached the conclusion that just becased on the resources, it's very good to waste your cav to TC fire to idle vills.

A 10 vill TC kills a huss in 5 hits, and it shoots every 3 seconds, so it takes 15 seconds to kill a huss. Assuming vills gather 1 res/second, those vills couild have gathered 150 resources, while a huss is worth 200 resources. The break-even point would be with about 13 vills in TC.

So under these conditions you lose 50 resources. However, this is a highly idealistic situation. Many times you will idle way more vills, especially if the other guy has more units. Plus, there is the walking time to and from TC, vills bumping into each other, etc. So I think it's very very good to waste your cav to TC fire based on these nubers, unless you think strategically it's better not to.
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India Ashvin
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11 Nov 2018, 05:41

Interesting. That's assuming he pulls every vill in the TC the moment your cav steps in his base. Some good players (for me that's 1lt+) only pull the vills closer to cav while keeping other vills on field.

Do you think to make it more effective, we should split cav almost everytime, despite the fact that it makes killing vills a bit but slower and body blocks less?
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No Flag ovi12
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11 Nov 2018, 14:47

Ashvin wrote:Interesting. That's assuming he pulls every vill in the TC the moment your cav steps in his base. Some good players (for me that's 1lt+) only pull the vills closer to cav while keeping other vills on field.

Do you think to make it more effective, we should split cav almost everytime, despite the fact that it makes killing vills a bit but slower and body blocks less?


I think yes, because that will meqn you are sure to idle as many vills as possible.
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Brazil lemmings121
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11 Nov 2018, 20:15

ovi12 wrote:I've wanted to do these calculations for many months. I've finally done it, and reached the conclusion that just becased on the resources, it's very good to waste your cav to TC fire to idle vills.

A 10 vill TC kills a huss in 5 hits, and it shoots every 3 seconds, so it takes 15 seconds to kill a huss. Assuming vills gather 1 res/second, those vills couild have gathered 150 resources, while a huss is worth 200 resources. The break-even point would be with about 13 vills in TC.

So under these conditions you lose 50 resources. However, this is a highly idealistic situation. Many times you will idle way more vills, especially if the other guy has more units. Plus, there is the walking time to and from TC, vills bumping into each other, etc. So I think it's very very good to waste your cav to TC fire based on these nubers, unless you think strategically it's better not to.



Nice!
Something to consider, is the amount of shots needed to kill the unit. And obviously, if the defensor has CM.
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Netherlands momuuu
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11 Nov 2018, 20:58

In my experience, whenever a civ has no units at all it's good to just 'waste' your cav idling them. For example if some civ decided to naked FF or is doing some very greedy BO, it is absolutely worthwhile to just park your units under their TC.

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Brazil macacoalbino
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12 Nov 2018, 15:06

One thing people dont always take into consideration is the value of having the threat of raids. Its not the scenario the Op posted but still. Think german vs india, if you can keep the free uhlans alive while just making them pop vills in and out is better than staying under the tc fire usually. By retreating everytime they react, you’ll eventually come in at a point they are not paying attention and may kill villagers for free like that.
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Italy Garja
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12 Nov 2018, 15:15

In that case the payout is more in diverting the attention of the Indian player from his rush.
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
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12 Nov 2018, 15:58

Hazza54321 wrote:id just go in an out so they have to use apm poping vills in and out of tc and they most likely only get 1 shot if u poke, sometimes zero and they garrisoned for nothing, jsut keep poking in an out of tc range

Precisely this, it seems The Hazza has understood my cav tutorial very well ;) Often people let their cav too long at a spot which is protected, such as near TC or WH, then losing them or too much of the HP. Its better if your threat remains because you can return any moment. Just killing one vill or idling them is already good. This is also the reason you mostly want to raid with a few cav rather than many (And PLS this is then again also the reason why you send a FEW cav back to deal with a raid and not your whole army!)

Also as mentioned, if you get rushed and have few units which isnt enough to defend, sending 2 cav to raid can do well. It can keep opponents mass lower than otherwise, while you wait for a good timing with for example a shipment timed with MM. You can still send your cav back to time it together, after they have been useful in the meantime.
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Sweden Gendarme
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12 Nov 2018, 16:04

momuuu wrote:In my experience, whenever a civ has no units at all it's good to just 'waste' your cav idling them. For example if some civ decided to naked FF or is doing some very greedy BO, it is absolutely worthwhile to just park your units under their TC.
If they have crates under their TC, sure. But why would it otherwise be a good idea?
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
Germany agrondergermane
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12 Nov 2018, 16:16

Gendarme wrote:
momuuu wrote:In my experience, whenever a civ has no units at all it's good to just 'waste' your cav idling them. For example if some civ decided to naked FF or is doing some very greedy BO, it is absolutely worthwhile to just park your units under their TC.
If they have crates under their TC, sure. But why would it otherwise be a good idea?

they can not gather ressources...?! if they cant age up and dont have a military buildings they might be in big trouble. but im sure u could have answered urself.
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Sweden Gendarme
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12 Nov 2018, 16:18

Well, they usually can't gather resources if you go back and forth either unless they have herds right under their TC.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Poland pecelot
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15 Nov 2018, 20:33

you need to train sheep and eat them under your TC
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No Flag ovi12
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15 Nov 2018, 21:27

macacoalbino wrote:One thing people dont always take into consideration is the value of having the threat of raids. Its not the scenario the Op posted but still. Think german vs india, if you can keep the free uhlans alive while just making them pop vills in and out is better than staying under the tc fire usually. By retreating everytime they react, you’ll eventually come in at a point they are not paying attention and may kill villagers for free like that.

I think this is right as well. But in a situation like a Dutch mirror, if you got a good trade and have 5 cav vs 0 while you are both aging, I would just leave them at the TC. This way you know for sure you will gather many more resources and be ahead in skirm/ryuter count. Yes there other things which could maybe pay off even more, for example if keep going in and out and have them until fortress. But then there is a risk of just losing them for free to some point. I would go with the guaranteed option of just circling their TC with cav.
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Poland pecelot
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15 Nov 2018, 22:38

the advice here is definitely right, I oftentimes found myself in a situation when I would waste my 5-cav batch to enemy TC fire and decide to another one, costing me effectively 2000 resources, which is a lot more than the loss of my opponent's gathering due to idling; I'll try to work on poking, going in and out, in the future — just like in AoE2 :smile:
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France P i k i l i c
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16 Nov 2018, 04:35

Aron Nimzowitsch wrote:The threat is stronger than the execution
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic
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China fei123456
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16 Nov 2018, 10:42

Using 5 hussars you not only idle their vills for a while, but also scouted the whole map, preventing some bad situations (your opponent is going water/ build a front rax while you don't know at all). And you can take some big treasures with hussars too (320xp 480xp etc). And some civs will use veteran hussars in age 3 too so you can upgrade them.
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India Ashvin
Howdah
Posts: 1768
ESO: Octanium

Yesterday, 12:32

To all the people who posted(specially @Hazza54321 ), thank you very much. I played Fre v Russia today on Indochina and saw schooners in his deck, decided to go forward stable, kept pressure with cav, later added musk and I outgathered him by 18k resources in 26 min long game.
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Poland pecelot
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Yesterday, 21:09

chapeau bas :smile:
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Brazil macacoalbino
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Today, 00:13

ovi12 wrote:
macacoalbino wrote:One thing people dont always take into consideration is the value of having the threat of raids. Its not the scenario the Op posted but still. Think german vs india, if you can keep the free uhlans alive while just making them pop vills in and out is better than staying under the tc fire usually. By retreating everytime they react, you’ll eventually come in at a point they are not paying attention and may kill villagers for free like that.

I think this is right as well. But in a situation like a Dutch mirror, if you got a good trade and have 5 cav vs 0 while you are both aging, I would just leave them at the TC. This way you know for sure you will gather many more resources and be ahead in skirm/ryuter count. Yes there other things which could maybe pay off even more, for example if keep going in and out and have them until fortress. But then there is a risk of just losing them for free to some point. I would go with the guaranteed option of just circling their TC with cav.

Agreed. It's completly situational. I think the rule of thumb is, don't suicide them to tc fire if you know they won't be able to kill the cav cost efficiently in the next minute or so (generally when ppl musk rush you they cant catch your raids if you're paying attention). Just have to keep an eye on cav shipments, mm and musks left behind to defend (in which case your cav has done their job by taking pressure of your city)
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