User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7456
Location: France

13 Jan 2019, 18:05

Result
Attachments
[EP5-1-1 SP] diarouga[AZ] vs snowww[BR] - ESOC Fertile Crescent.age3yrec
(960.6 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
ESOC Fertile Crescent
ESOC Fertile Crescent
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.1.1
Length: 17 minutes
[EP5-1-1 SP] diarouga[AZ] vs snowww[BR] - ESOC Hudson Bay.age3yrec
(1.11 MiB) Downloaded 19 times
ESOC Hudson Bay
ESOC Hudson Bay
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.1.1
Length: 35 minutes
[EP5-1-1 SP] diarouga[AZ] vs snowww[BR] - ESOC Pampas Sierras.age3yrec
(1000.21 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
ESOC Pampas Sierras
ESOC Pampas Sierras
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.1.1
Length: 18 minutes
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 2453
ESO: n0eL

13 Jan 2019, 18:17

Well played by both. even for a 3-0 was nice to watch!
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7456
Location: France

13 Jan 2019, 18:54

By the way, the hero killing 2 lb instead of the falcs in game 1 wasn't a misclick, it's a bug. Sometimes the hero doesn't attack the falcs but the closest unit instead.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
User avatar
France Kynesie
Dragoon
EWT
Posts: 308
ESO: kynesie

13 Jan 2019, 19:53

gg.nice serie
About your bug.. Possible but I'll believe it when it happens to me : )
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7456
Location: France

13 Jan 2019, 19:59

Well I've already got it like 10 times. I know that the other guys who tried the aztec FI like bsop, lukas etc also got it.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
User avatar
Brazil Kickass_OP
Dragoon
Posts: 441
ESO: Kickass
Location: Brasil

13 Jan 2019, 20:03

Azzyrouga op
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 572
ESO: HUMMAN

13 Jan 2019, 20:20

nerf aztec wtf
Sweden Challe
Crossbow
Posts: 39
ESO: Challe

13 Jan 2019, 21:29

nerf rouga wtf
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
EWT - Playoff
Posts: 6032
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

14 Jan 2019, 01:08

That bug happens to spahis too. Impossible to target a falc with inf around
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

iamturk:
well I have better mechanics than you
tbh tower rush is a good strat
User avatar
Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 6604
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

14 Jan 2019, 04:09

He's back, and I'm okay with it.
he wrote a poem out of dead lovebird feathers
it tickled
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Howdah
Posts: 1664
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: Cold ghettos of Malmö

14 Jan 2019, 12:38

more of erik underperforming than rouga playing good. hopefully kaiser won't go botmode (lecastete) and we shall see a good one.
https://gyazo.com/e23a3b3b415a4ea81b4ba113e25e5938
LoOk_tOm: U think that can u the lag
Hazza54321: Go fking play mariokart seriously
"I rather suck dick than play treaty" - Gibson 2k17
User avatar
Switzerland sebnan12
Howdah
Posts: 1437
ESO: Mongobillione
Location: Switzerland

14 Jan 2019, 14:09

erik cant underperform. rouga is the better playerino
''its is iamsucksturk'' - Kickass_op
''no you're trash you wouldnt beat me'' - Kaiserklein
"Not my fault everyone is a idiot" - Sir_Musket
"how do you say first lt in serbian" - outta_key_
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14131
ESO: Jerom_
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

14 Jan 2019, 14:49

@Diarouga can you maybe do your thoughts on this match up like you did last time? I enjoy your insights.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14131
ESO: Jerom_
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

14 Jan 2019, 15:12

Also I absolutely loved how Diarouga approached this. I think its rare for us to see cases where people are stuck with a civ in some match up that is generally bad and have to find ways to make it work or at least to maximize the winrate. Diarouga was forced to play aztec against british, and managed to come up with 3 different gameplans for 3 games that probably maximized his winrates. Game 1 he goes for an eco fortress style, game 2 he goes for an insane water turtle (which supposedly he considered to be slightly superior to the eco fortress style) and in game 3 he judges that aggressive play on a low res map like Fertile Crescent would actually give the best winrate. Interesting stuff (also pls give insights).

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 6463
ESO: Garja

14 Jan 2019, 15:32

Brits are not supposed to be a hard MU for Aztecs. With that said, Diarouga played it well. Hudson game was quite some hardcore laming.
User avatar
Finland princeofkabul
Howdah
Posts: 1664
ESO: Princeofkabul
Location: Cold ghettos of Malmö

14 Jan 2019, 15:43

hudson game was a massive throw.
https://gyazo.com/e23a3b3b415a4ea81b4ba113e25e5938
LoOk_tOm: U think that can u the lag
Hazza54321: Go fking play mariokart seriously
"I rather suck dick than play treaty" - Gibson 2k17
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7456
Location: France

14 Jan 2019, 18:30

momuuu wrote:Also I absolutely loved how Diarouga approached this. I think its rare for us to see cases where people are stuck with a civ in some match up that is generally bad and have to find ways to make it work or at least to maximize the winrate. Diarouga was forced to play aztec against british, and managed to come up with 3 different gameplans for 3 games that probably maximized his winrates. Game 1 he goes for an eco fortress style, game 2 he goes for an insane water turtle (which supposedly he considered to be slightly superior to the eco fortress style) and in game 3 he judges that aggressive play on a low res map like Fertile Crescent would actually give the best winrate. Interesting stuff (also pls give insights).

Well, Aztec is a great civ overall, but it has 2 big weaknesses, and if the brit player plays properly he can really abuse these weaknesses, which is why the match up is one-sided in my opinion.

1) Your economy is rather bad. The 10 warrior priests are great in early game because you can compete in economy with every civ thanks to the shipments, but it's not enough to outboom in early game and the longer the game goes, the less useful the exp dance is, and that's when you get outmassed hard.
Also you can't gather gold effectively in late game, which means that you should lose every late game since you can't even make your best unit (eagle runner)

2) You have no way to counter anti infantry because you don't have cannons (which is huge), and you don't have a decent cav. Coyotes do fine in early game because they're easy to mass, and they become okish with the coyote combat shipment, but still, they're not good. You need both coyote combat and the war dance if you want them to compete with hussars, and still, they'll be less tanky.
In age 2 games, as I said, it's not really an issue because they do okish, but in late game situations it's really awful because you don't have the eco to really mass them, you sometimes don't have time to send coyote combat, and they get sniped before reaching melee since they're not tanky at all.
Thus it's very hard for Aztecs to deal with a skirm or lb mass because you can't fight it effectively, and you don't even have the range advantage so you keep losing units.

Brit is by far the best civ to abuse these weaknesses. The civ has one of the best eco in the game, which means that if you don't pressure from the start, it can just outboom you hard and spam from 3 military buildings, and it has lb available in 2nd age.
Thus, with a lb start a tower, minutemen, vill fighting (which does great against coyotes), and even some walls if needed, you can boom very hard while holding any kind of early pressure. At some point you can then timing with lb/huss/musk and Aztec can't deal with that because brit will have the range advantage (thanks to lb who counter maces), and it will be impossible for Aztec to engage because musk/huss can just block and kill the coyotes, especially since you outmass.

Knowing that, I tried to go for a semi ff in game 1. It definitely shouldn't win the MU, but it does ok, it doesn't give you less opportunities to win than the standard age 2 play.
The idea is to get a huge amount of shipments so that you can mass a lot of coyotes/maces/eagles and match brit's army. Economy doesn't really matter at this point, because although you have like 20 less vills, the wp give you enough shipments to match his army until like 13-14 minutes into the game.
The idea is to counter the lb with the WC who kills them quite fast, and can tank a lot, while killing the musk/huss with mace/eagle, which is a super hard counter to musk/huss.

Since I went for a FI 2 times in a row on this map, I expected erik to try to counter it with an agressive musk/huss in age 2, which fails hard against a semi ff into mace/eagle. Watching the rec, I think he wanted to go for some kind of semi FI builds (which should fail against the FI actually) because he was keeping a lot of food in bank, but apparently he didn't manage to fix his macro and didn't get enough units to hold my timing, although the first fight was rather good for him, since I didn't manage to snipe the falcs.
Anyway, going for a defensive build against erik is very comfortable because you have your units in base to deal with the raids. Starting cav in this MU is actually a mistake because it means that you can't get as much eco because you have to invest more resources into units.

Game 2 was a gamble. I knew that this MU was going to be very hard on Hudson Bay because he has a lot of safe resources, so I tried to exploit his weakness against water boom, which in a way, worked.
The idea is again to go mace/eagle/WC to deal with his composition. Fortunately, he didn't get the age 5 upgrades, and went for musk/huss against mace/eagle which is a huge mistake.
This BO definitely doesn't work, but it was an attempt to surprise him on a map which is else very hard to win.

Game 3 was on fertile crescent. The map doesn't have a lot of hunts, so on this map I'd say that Aztec is fine and the MU is even because the brit player doesn't have enough time to get a crazy timing and break you. Thus, the idea is to contain and make sure you don't lose all your eco on raids.
Erik decided to go for a musk start (which isn't good, but it is an interesting mind game because you want to counter the coyote start), and got a pretty bad start. I went for a timing because I thought that I could end the game since he went for a greedy musk start, but I got trapped by a 5musk+6lb+mm pop which almost costed me the game since he killed my army and had the opportunity to take the map.

All in all, I'd say that brit can just start with longbowmen, boom, and timing with 15 lb + musk/huss to get the map, and there's not much Aztec can do vs that on most maps. The only decent options you have against that are :
- rush hard (700w/10 maces/9maces) and hope he either starts musk (which straight up loses to that build), or goes too greedy and doesn't get enough lb to hold or doesn't fight with vills.
- Go for some contain play, but you can't ever commit, so you have to hope that the brit player either doesn't hit a good timing (many brit players push too early and don't have the mass to break the 2 wh), or doesn't micro well and can't get the map.
- Semi ff, and hope he doesn't get the right composition, or fights at a bad timing.

This serie isn't really a good example of how this MU should go because it was a mess, but if you want to win as Aztecs you really have to rely on the brit player making mistakes. Brit being one of the hardest civs to play is the reason why some people like Hazza or garja claim that this isn't that bad, and it's true that macro mistakes, having the wrong unit composition, not making enough eco, or being too greedy is quite frequent, but if brit plays it properly Aztec really can't do much.

Thing is, brit is probably the most misplayed civ currently, because people go for safe, versatile build orders, and thus don't get enough units to end the game with a timing.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
User avatar
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14131
ESO: Jerom_
Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

14 Jan 2019, 18:45

Thank you for that! Love the considerations on how to maximize the winrate.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
Posts: 7456
Location: France

14 Jan 2019, 19:01

For those who still don't believe this is Brit favoured, please watch these two recs:

[EP5-1-1 SP] diarouga[AZ] vs kynesie[BR] - ESOC Pampas Sierras.age3yrec
(1.56 MiB) Downloaded 10 times
ESOC Pampas Sierras
ESOC Pampas Sierras
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.1.1
Length: 20 minutes

The first game is a game I played 1 week ago against kynesie, who doesn't know this MU at all, and thus made several mistakes. He aged at 4:35 instead of 4:10, while aging early is key in this MU, then he sent 6 lb as his first shipment while this was totally unnecessary.
Still, with walls there was nothing I could do so I had to play it until the middle game and there was nothing I could do then as I was outmassed.
This shows that even when you don't play the MU properly you can win it rather easily as brit.

[EP5-1-1 SP] diarouga[BR] vs Hazza54321[AZ] - ESOC Florida.age3yrec
(1.43 MiB) Downloaded 9 times
ESOC Florida
ESOC Florida
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 5.1.1
Length: 11 minutes


In this game, I played brit vs Hazza's Aztecs. Overall, although his timings weren't perfect since he doesn't have enough experience in 1v1, he played it well. His macro was on point, he didn't overcommit, and waited me at his wh. That was a nice eco contain build, but still, it was quite brutal because Aztec just can't hold the Brit timing.
"dia abused the explorer really well I'm impressed"
Bran6new
User avatar
France Lecastete
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 221
ESO: Lecastete
Location: France

14 Jan 2019, 19:41

princeofkabul wrote:more of erik underperforming than rouga playing good. hopefully kaiser won't go botmode (lecastete) and we shall see a good one.


+1 funny cuz it's true
" Your wife looks like my feet" - Sirmusket 2018
"My micro is better than yours" - Sirmusket 2018
"kinda irritating knowing your own potential but losing it to not playing the game" - Dontay 2018
User avatar
No Flag gomakchios
Crossbow
Posts: 23

14 Jan 2019, 21:20

1536808412.72-smiley.gif
1536808412.72-smiley.gif (693 Bytes) Viewed 202 times
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 6463
ESO: Garja

Yesterday, 00:01

This MU is not Brit favored. It might not be the easiest MU for Aztecs, but that's just because Brits on EP are a strong civ overall and EP maps help Brits while nerf Aztecs. In fact Aztecs don't really have an easy MU on EP, except maybe for Japan. They can win almost every MU but they have to earn it.
@[Armag] diarouga
In the first game vs Kynesie you kinda just threw the advantage. You went unit-unit-unit-WC card in fortress and you werent able to even beat his colonial army because of your micro (and I guess overextension but I'd say that's not the real mistake there).
I had sort of the same situation with Aizmak on the same map, except he decide to do this sort of very boomy late age+wall. The point is that you have too outboom if Brits let you do what you want.
[EP1 SP] 456[AZ] vs Aizamk[BR] - ESOC Pampas Sierras.age3yrec
(564.75 KiB) Downloaded 1 time
ESOC Pampas Sierras
ESOC Pampas Sierras
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 1.0
Length: 28 minutes


In the game vs Hazza he simply had a suboptimal build and did some mistakes. I lost many games by either sending the wrong card or pushing Brits base at the wrong moment. Also it depends a lot on how you balance your army. It's important to pass the point where Brits try to push out because from there it's easier since even in the best case Brit vills will have to move out of base for extra resources and the unit production will slow down + vills will be exposed.
As long as you make the right card calls and balance your army according to what Brits have you should be fine. And if the oppnent try to age you either mass up and trade his first age3 push or you follow him to fortress. I have plenty of games like that. In some I won in other I lost. It all depends on whether you can keep the contain or not.
Ah, also when you start coyo you definetely want to abuse the fact that you get the first batch at 5 min. So you start to raid non stop unless he starts with a stable.
On Florida I would simply consider something different. Either 10wp boom or fish boom. On TP maps you can try TP boom either with fast age or with WH age up. Also on 4+ TP maps you can ATP.
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 4963

Yesterday, 00:07

i dont think its so one sided either
VeniVidiVici_W: lol bwinner, i dont need anyone to carry me to win vs you with your noobplay
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 566
ESO: Veni_Vidi_Vici_W

Yesterday, 00:14

Diarouga, if anything, that argument of your game vs kynesie just shows walls (at least with current stats/costs) are completely changing the game in a way they are not supposed to, especially with some people abusing it as much as possible ^^ I havent seen the game or the possible mistakes you did, but you are the better player of the two (decision making, bo, micro, macro) and I think this matchup is only sightly brit favored, not by much.

Hazza is good, although a little less 1/1 experienced he is similar in overall skill. Ofc brit has a good mid-game timing and most importantly an easier eco behind it and easier-to-micro unit composition. Doesnt make it a free win though.

Sadly, this game is getting further from a real strategy game as people just wall everything like its an nr10 or w.e other game where you just sit back and do nothing. Unlike a real rts game, where you have to fight for the map and resources, think about positioning of units and groups instead of sitting between a wall and 2 buildings, or where you have to actually micro your units instead of just watching your units behind a wall while eating a snack.

Perhaps while aiming to balance the game and civs, the EP maps just have too many resources too close to the base, allowing similar defensive strats in a lot of cases, which otherwise shouldnt work or at least not that easily.
Age Of Empires 3 Videos - GamePlay, Commentary & Tutorials: http://www.youtube.com/venividiviciw
Age Of Empires 3 Live Stream - http://www.twitch.tv/venividivici_w
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 6463
ESO: Garja

Yesterday, 00:28

EP maps do have too many resources. I was watching some of my old recs of this MU on the RE patch and the difference in resource standards it's hilarious.

Forum Info

Return to “Round of 8”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JackSparrow_IB and 0 guests