Teaching Robo AOE3

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Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by Interjection »

Most of you guys will be aware that I'm hosting a series on the EscapeAoE Twitch channel where I teach @robo how to play AOE3.

We're calling the segment 'Inter-the New World' :lol: , in the first segment I started him out against the AI just telling him what to do & what to send to get a feel for how the game flows. Robo has pretty solid RTS mechanics and is about 1900 on Voobly for AOC so, as expected, he picked it up quite quickly, and by the end of the segment we defeated the expert AI and managed to win a game on ESO (albeit against a hunt-screwed corporal).

I think this method of telling someone what to do & send is effective and it's certainly something we'll continue doing. Except there are a few things you can't teach when the game around you is going so quickly e.g., creeping treasures, how to micro units, etc.

If anyone has suggestions on how you'd go about coaching someone let me know! I'm looking for specific mini-scenarios to really nail out certain skills. To start with, I'm going to build a scenario to practice creeping treasures. We'll also play time-to-micro & Cards I think as they give you a good grasp of how the unit counter system works (and it's fun).
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Sargsyan »

Creeping treasure is ez af, dont think you need a scenario to teach him that
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by momuuu »

The two most crucial basic mechanics are the old videos by parfait on treasure creeping and the early game video by mr milo. Those two videos should basically single handedly seal up the early game and how to play it.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by Jaeger »

I think it’s a little confusing when you say “those are ruyters”, “those are dragoons”, “those are forest prowlers”, etc because without playing those civs, its confusing to remember what’s what and what counters what because there are too many names.

The way I learned the counter system is in the nilla tags style. There are just a few classes: light infantry (skirm, xbow), heavy infantry (musk, pike), ranged cav (goons), cav, and cannons. Imo just teach him these classes and what counters what. And if you want to be 100% correct and it bothers you to say “light infantry”, you can just say somethink like “skirm type”
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by Goodspeed »

Imo focus on learning the game from an AoE2 perspective. Mention ways in which the game is similar, but also, importantly, ways in which the game is vastly different. For example the snare effect and how this often means you have to commit to fights, how armies ideally consist of 3 unit types and how to micro them, how "unique" units typically fit into a defined unit type (often not the case in AoE2), how much more decisive hunt control is in this game compared to gold control, how games can actually end in colonial age, how to plan a build order with shipments in mind, how booming is typically something you do by using your civ bonus or water, not by building more TCs, etc.

As for mechanics versus the thinking aspect: Mechanics aren't the challenge here. He's an AoE2 player, which is much more challenging mechanically, so effective use of hotkeys, creeping treasures and all that will come on its own. Knowledge and good decision making is where the steep learning curve is for someone who is new to this game but experienced at RTS. It's also what makes this game fun, so I'd focus mostly on that. Rather than play micro scenarios I'd have him just play the game first, then improve on micro once he's reached captain+ level. Unless he just enjoys them a lot of course.

And stick with 1 civ for a while, if he's serious.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by robo »

Poggers advice from everyone :O

but it's robo not Robo dammit! How many times do I need to say this
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by Goodspeed »

Not relevant here, but nicknames like that are such a pain when starting sentences with them. I never know whether to capitalize them.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by musketeer925 »

Goodspeed wrote:Not relevant here, but nicknames like that are such a pain when starting sentences with them. I never know whether to capitalize them.

It's not exactly a problem unique to online usernames. English style manuals seem to largely disagree on how to handle a surname like "de Bernezan" used at the beginning of a sentence [1]. Wikipedia also has an extensive page of its style manual dedicated to trademarks, which may have the same problem [2]. A conclusion I have seen in both contexts is "reword things in order to avoid writing a sentence that starts with the problematic word".

I too prefer musketeer925 to be written in lowercase. The capital M looks out of place to me.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by Jerimuno »

Interjection wrote:If anyone has suggestions on how you'd go about coaching someone let me know! I'm looking for specific mini-scenarios to really nail out certain skills. To start with, I'm going to build a scenario to practice creeping treasures.


A scenario for creeping treasures already exists and is played regularly. It's called Lost in its various forms.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Goodspeed »

musketeer925 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Not relevant here, but nicknames like that are such a pain when starting sentences with them. I never know whether to capitalize them.

It's not exactly a problem unique to online usernames. English style manuals seem to largely disagree on how to handle a surname like "de Bernezan" used at the beginning of a sentence [1]. Wikipedia also has an extensive page of its style manual dedicated to trademarks, which may have the same problem [2]. A conclusion I have seen in both contexts is "reword things in order avoid writing a sentence that starts with the problematic word".

I too prefer musketeer925 to be written in lowercase. The capital M looks out of place to me.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who struggles with it. Yeah that's what I've been doing, avoiding it by adding words. At least on ESOC it's not so bad because you can just @ them, which bolds the name and puts a "@" in front, making it not look as ugly as when you started the sentence with a lower case character.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by TNT333 »

Goodspeed wrote:
musketeer925 wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Not relevant here, but nicknames like that are such a pain when starting sentences with them. I never know whether to capitalize them.

It's not exactly a problem unique to online usernames. English style manuals seem to largely disagree on how to handle a surname like "de Bernezan" used at the beginning of a sentence [1]. Wikipedia also has an extensive page of its style manual dedicated to trademarks, which may have the same problem [2]. A conclusion I have seen in both contexts is "reword things in order avoid writing a sentence that starts with the problematic word".

I too prefer musketeer925 to be written in lowercase. The capital M looks out of place to me.
Glad to know I'm not the only one who struggles with it. Yeah that's what I've been doing, avoiding it by adding words. At least on ESOC it's not so bad because you can just @ them, which bolds the name and puts a "@" in front, making it not look as ugly as when you started the sentence with a lower case character.

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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by jesus3 »

Goodspeed wrote:Not relevant here, but nicknames like that are such a pain when starting sentences with them. I never know whether to capitalize them.


Granted, but there is only one way to write PHISH
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goodspeed wrote:Imo focus on learning the game from an AoE2 perspective. Mention ways in which the game is similar, but also, importantly, ways in which the game is vastly different. For example the snare effect and how this often means you have to commit to fights, how armies ideally consist of 3 unit types and how to micro them, how "unique" units typically fit into a defined unit type (often not the case in AoE2), how much more decisive hunt control is in this game compared to gold control, how games can actually end in colonial age, how to plan a build order with shipments in mind, how booming is typically something you do by using your civ bonus or water, not by building more TCs, etc.

As for mechanics versus the thinking aspect: Mechanics aren't the challenge here. He's an AoE2 player, which is much more challenging mechanically, so effective use of hotkeys, creeping treasures and all that will come on its own. Knowledge and good decision making is where the steep learning curve is for someone who is new to this game but experienced at RTS. It's also what makes this game fun, so I'd focus mostly on that. Rather than play micro scenarios I'd have him just play the game first, then improve on micro once he's reached captain+ level. Unless he just enjoys them a lot of course.

And stick with 1 civ for a while, if he's serious.

I agree with all this.
As for @Interjection's suggestion. I think that telling someone what to do definitely helps him to play better, the issue is that Robo might not understand why he had to do what you told him, and thus improve slowly.
In my opinion, it's much more important to teach a "plan". I'm surprised by the amount of people (even at pr30) who play without a plan. Just try to ask mid tier players why they lost at the end of a game and the answer you'll get most of the time is "I didn't micro well" or "civ X is op". Then ask them about their game plan, and most will just say something like "it's the standard brit BO, I make musks and eco, it's good !". Build orders are very important, and I don't think that learning a game with learning the build orders is a good idea, however build order just give a flexible start, then you have to adapt and make the right unit composition and hit the right timings.

I think that in general, working on "plans" would not only help the new players but also the players who are stuck under pr35 and who are serious about improving. What I try to do before a game start is to see how I want the game to go.
Example: I want 5 pikes at 6:00 to hold the raid, then I want to boom as hard as I can, age and hit a timing at 9:30 when I'll have more units.

With experience you'll understand that some plans don't work (and why), and you'll get a better knowledge of the game. You might become more creative as well.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by edeholland »

@Aykin Haraka @Hazza54321 If you want to shitpost about princeofkabul and tit surfing, go to off-topic.

@Goodspeed How would you teach me, an AoE3 player, AoE2? Is it the other way around, focusing on mechanics? Would you still practice with just 1 civ, or can you use whatever you want?
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

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Post by robo »

@edeholland what I'm doing with @Interjection is starting with relatively standard civs (saracens, brits, maybe Franks and Japanese next) that don't have really crazy bonuses (huns, Malay, china, the Meso/american civs) so that he can learn the basic mechanics and get a feel for basic build orders without being overwhelmed with strange mechanics or learning bad habits.

Then later as we start to refine/optimise build orders we'll start looking at the weird civs.

Essentially if you can do a decent dark age into fuedal aggression (scouts or archer rush probably) you should be able to beat 80% of players who are <1650 on hd.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Goodspeed »

In AoE2 I think for me the main focus would be macro and effective use of APM to prepare you for times where you need more than you have. So, yeah, mechanics. I'd probably have you start by playing Huns and attempting to execute a crisp, generic feudal age archer or cav start into cav archers in castle. Not having to build houses really helps if you're just starting out with a game like AoE2, where economy management can feel overwhelming. Once you get the hang of that I might have you play a more late-game oriented civ (maybe Indians) so you can learn how to play defensively and plan to win in Imperial age. But there is less diversity between the civs in AoE2 so switching civs wouldn't hurt as much. Most civs can pull off most styles of play, usually the better player wins regardless.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by bwinner »

I think for both aoe2/3, when comming from one and switching to the other, the opening is quite easy to learn because there is few variations and they don't really matter for a beginner, so you can litterally always execute the same thing in early game.
What's very hard though is to learn the late game, because when you will play vs other player that have the same level like you but haven't play the other game, they will be much more familiar than you with the units (i.e for me when I play aoe2, I can play at the same lvl like people who have like 300 games online even though I have only 25 games online).
I don't know other way than playing at least a 100th of games to learn what to do in late game though.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by supahons »

Perhaps give him an introduction to a MU before you start playing. Civ bonuses (quite minimal compared to AoE2, => https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Civilizations_(Age_of_Empires_III)), Water, Tradeposts, Food/Wood/Coin start. What is the other player most likely going to do?
I've watched the twitchstream, but i think he has skipped a few stages of learning with your help.
Expert AI win, Masterserg win in 2 days -> maybe let him play and ask questions now. It felt a bit like an Interjection script, which led to the moment of silence "I've won against an average AoE3 player, where do i find the techtree in this game?" :lol:
Other than that idk what to improve, thx for streaming.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by robo »

Goodspeed wrote:I'd probably have you start by playing Huns and attempting to execute a crisp, generic feudal age archer or cav start into cav archers in castle. Not having to build houses really helps if you're just starting out with a game like AoE2, where economy management can feel overwhelming.


I recommend the complete opposite. Playing huns gets you into bad habits where you are used to not needing huns and having a nice, smooth economy. Once you transition into other civs you run into problems getting housed all the time. I feel its better to get that basic mechanic (making houses every 5 pop) down pat really early to make the switch between civs easier.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Goodspeed »

I think for most people, including AoE3 players, economy management in a game like AoE2 can be overwhelming and anything to make it a bit easier helps. In the beginning I don't think it's important to learn how to make houses in time, as this is a very easy habit to learn later on. I started off this way and had no trouble adding houses to my build order by the time I switched to a civ that did need houses, because by then I was comfortable with all of the other mechanics. What happens if you start with a civ that needs houses is you really do get housed all the time, and on top of the existing challenges I think it is more annoying than a valuable learning experience. In short, I think a game as mechanically challenging as AoE2 warrants some training wheels, and Huns are good training wheels.

Also, Huns' general strength and relatively low difficulty allow the player to play slightly above their actual level, which means they learn more from their opponents.

But yeah, you could also just throw them in the deep end. Steeper learning curve, but you might get better results long term. Depends on the kind of player they are, too.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Thrar »

In teaching/learning a new skill, I would generally aim for two things: Don't try to do too much at once, and aim to always have some sense of accomplishment.

With that in mind, I think starting with Huns in AoE2 or Ottomans in AoE3 is a nice shortcut to focus on some of the high-impact things first and get that sense of accomplishment, while leaving a relatively mundane and boring task by the wayside. To me this is similar to starting a new language by speaking rather than studying grammar for weeks, or learning a new sport by jumping in and doing it rather than doing endless rote practice.

I'd agree with Goodspeed that filling in those boring things can be done just as well later, and at that point actually leads to a new accomplishment - you're now learning your second civ.
In a similar vein, I'd probably focus on pure land maps at first, ignore natives in AoE3, not worry about relics in AoE2, and so on. Each of these things can be a teachable moment later on, when the learner has gotten some accomplishments out of whatever they started with.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by deleted_user »

You don't learn if you don't enjoy it at least a little, in whatever capacity, in exposures of some reasonable dose. Hoomans are pretty good at tricking ourselves, luckily? >:)
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Thrar wrote:In teaching/learning a new skill, I would generally aim for two things: Don't try to do too much at once, and aim to always have some sense of accomplishment.

With that in mind, I think starting with Huns in AoE2 or Ottomans in AoE3 is a nice shortcut to focus on some of the high-impact things first and get that sense of accomplishment, while leaving a relatively mundane and boring task by the wayside. To me this is similar to starting a new language by speaking rather than studying grammar for weeks, or learning a new sport by jumping in and doing it rather than doing endless rote practice.

I'd agree with Goodspeed that filling in those boring things can be done just as well later, and at that point actually leads to a new accomplishment - you're now learning your second civ.
In a similar vein, I'd probably focus on pure land maps at first, ignore natives in AoE3, not worry about relics in AoE2, and so on. Each of these things can be a teachable moment later on, when the learner has gotten some accomplishments out of whatever they started with.

Well, 90% of the aoe3 top players ignore natives and water anyway lol.
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Hazza54321 »

Water just has better design in other rts games ie warships cost pop, fishing boats dont rek ships when garrisoned and dodging arrows is a thing, also don’t completely annihilate land units
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Re: Teaching Robo AOE3

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah pretty much

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