"3 Settler Wagons" Shipment Discussion

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As a Germans player, if you had to choose, would you rather remove the 2 Uhlans from the shipment (making it 3SW), or exchange one Settler Wagon for a Settler (making it 2SW + 1S + 2U)?

I will be polling this in the near future, publically, but wish for the community to discuss the issue first, to help give voters as informed an opinion, as possible.

Right now, 3SW is about as consistent as if Discovery 2SW came with an Uhlan (definitely an intra-civ balance issue, meaning it's far too viable, compared to other shipments).

Personally, I'd rather remove the Uhlans, because I find the 3SW shipment every bit as defining of the civilization, as the Uhlans bonus, itself, and believe that altering the three Wagons would take away more from the player experience. Also, this would allow the player strategic choice (as opposed to the shipment being strictly superior), and maintain players the option not to screw with pre-existing builds.

The only advantage I see for 2SW+1S, is that it maintains absolute consistency outside of Mercenary shipments (ignoring Discovery age 2SW, of course) – although 3SW is a logical and sensible exception to make, given the distinctiveness of the shipment (of a unique unit), as well as the fact that it's currently a horrible inconsistency, being the civilization's only shipment to receive two bonuses.

Am I missing any advantages of 2SW+1S?

Please note that there is no risk of either change happening, with the release of EP7, if it proves unpopular. Still, for the sake of the question, assume that you must choose.

P.S: Only for Germans: We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency, that's hiding in plain sight.

"Germans gets a "2 Settler Wagons" Discovery shipment. Effectively, this shipment has a bonus Settler, meaning that currently, every Germans Colonial, Fortress, and Industrial shipment comes with a bonus (except for 3SW which comes with 2, if you recall), but 2SW is the only Discovery shipment that does. From a consistency and design perspective, that is fucking atrocious. It is not a matter of inter-civilization balance – it's hideous and automatically disqualifies every other Discovery shipment from viability."

Thank you for your input!

[yemshi]

P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

Thank you for your input!

Isn' that as ugly as it gets? A tremendously long list for... eco theory?

[vividlyplain]

As was pointed out on the German Discussion thread, 3 SWs has a double bonus. I think nerfing this particular card is a positive move.

[Riotcoke]

Is this assuming Uhlans get buffed back to 190 hp as if not 3sw on it's own is better

[duckzilla]

P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

So all civs get 4 vills instead of 3? What about France? Will they get 4 Cdb (=4.8 vills)? Or will their shipment become the worst vill shipment in the game?

I'm not really convinced. I would neither change the discovery age shipments nor the german colonial age shipment.

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Is this assuming Uhlans get buffed back to 190 hp as if not 3sw on it's own is better

As is made clear in the OP, this is assuming only that you have to choose between the two options. At this time, it is far from certain that it will feature in EP7's release.

[jgals]

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

[GiBthedurrty]

i will not anwser so i wont become a zoiboy

[Sargsyan]

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

completely agree, bro

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P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency.

So all civs get 4 vills instead of 3? What about France? Will they get 4 Cdb (=4.8 vills)? Or will their shipment become the worst vill shipment in the game?

I'm not really convinced. I would neither change the discovery age shipments nor the german colonial age shipment.

No. Germans gets a "2 Settler Wagons" Discovery shipment. Effectively, this shipment has a bonus Settler, meaning that currently, every Germans Colonial, Fortress, and Industrial shipment comes with a bonus (except for 3SW which comes with 2, if you recall), but 2SW is the only Discovery shipment that does. From a consistency and design perspective, that is fucking atrocious. It is not a matter of inter-civilization balance – it's hideous and automatically disqualifies every other Discovery shipment from viability.

Also, whether anyone would change anything is irrelevant to this thread. I only want to know which change players would prefer, if they had to choose.

Updated OP; thanks!

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its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

It is very funny that they were. They aren't, however. Please don't project others' decisions onto me!

[Sargsyan]

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

They were. They aren't.

they weren't, they are

[zoom]

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

They were. They aren't.

they weren't, they are

Nonsense! What makes you say that – my consistently expressed desire to buff unviable features, over the past ten years?

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i will not anwser and become a zoiboy

Although I'm not sure what that means: : (

[Sargsyan]

Show hidden quotes

its funny how the devs are so reticent to change something that no one would even care about like mantlet speed with the stated mission of "not changing the original game too much" but yet they implemented something so totally game breaking; nerfing the HP of an already paper thin cavalry unit that is expensive and costs 2 pop

They were. They aren't.

they weren't, they are

Nonsense! What makes you say that – my consistently expressed desire to buff unviable features, over the past ten years?

i wish esoc existed 10 years ago

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ESOC is irrelevant to my statement. I am talking about the game, you happy guy. Now stop embarrasing yourself.

[aligator92]

3SW is prettier design wise but 2SW + 1S + 2U is better balance wise because removing both Uhlans completely turns the early cav balance vs other cav starting civs on its head. So as a german player I would prefer 2SW + 1S + 2U.

[u]
P.S. We should add a Settler to all Discovery Age shipments (other than 2SW (because it already has it), and INFINITE and TEAM shipments (by default)). It would help balance 2SW, and remove a horribly ugly inconsistency, that's hiding in plain sight.

Are we talking german shipments here or all discovery shipments?

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Again, Germans. My bad. I did update the OP. Let me do it again in another attempt to be clearer. Thanks!

[Kaiserklein]

There isn't any inconsistency tbh. Germany just happens to get sw shipments which are stronger than vil shipments, both discovery 2 sw and colonial 3 sw. Then, discovery shipments don't have any free uhlans (2 sw included), and colonial shipments have 2 free uhlans (3 sw included). If you want to keep the consistency, well, you simply shouldn't touch the current 3 sw shipment.

Then again, at this point, I doubt consistency is really our main concern. As a german player, I'd rather have 2sw +1v + 2 uhlans than 3 sw + 0 uhlan. It's just never really worth trading 1v for 2 uhlans. I don't know if it would be enough of a nerf, would need testing.
It's definitely a smoother change than 3 sw + 0 uhlan though, because that one would change the way germany is played, most likely making 700w the preferred standard first shipment. Not getting the early 2 uhlans to harass your opponent, and then having 5 uhlans instead of 7, just makes the early colonial so much weaker, while having one less vil doesn't really matter early on. And if you're not starting with cav it's the same story, probably even worse when you go for a naked ff.

[Garja]

-2 ulhans is clearly a more drastic change, while -1v is hust a shadow nerf.
Bith are impactful balance wise, just the vill one is less intrusive

[deleted_user]

I am against all eco nerfs in EP

[GiBthedurrty]

DID ZOI DELETE "ZOIBOYCHILL XD?"

[Sargsyan]

what is that true ?

[Goodspeed]

I like neither change but would pick -1v over -2 cav.
Maybe you can leave Germans alone if exiled prince is being nerfed further?

[Sargsyan]

my posts are also deleted, such an atrocity towards our freedom of speech