German vs jap

[giveuanxiety]

What does German do vs jap? That was like the one mu I struggled with as German.

[deleted_user]

I've often seen Kaiser unsuccessfully naked FF for a quick fortress timing (3 SW 700w 8 skirm or something).

[Sputnik]

Try to play like re with skirm uhlan br earlier instead of jaeger ww if jap goes ashi yumi age 3. If jap is playing age 2 make ww i guess, you dont have to go in right away you can just clear shrines and while reaching critical mass. Age 2 jap play can be shut down with 8 bow and i would start racks against no cons opening. Just beware the 4.5 multiplier of ashi against cav

[Sputnik]

[quote="Sputnik"]Try to play like re with skirm uhlan br earlier instead of jaeger ww if jap goes ashi yumi age 3. If jap is playing age 2 make ww i guess. Against age 3 play that mentioned you dont have to go in right away you can just clear shrines while reaching critical mass. Age 2 jap play can be shut down with 8 bow and i would start racks against no cons opening. Just beware the 4.5 multiplier of ashi against cav.

[[Armag] diarouga]

As Callan said, just go for a naked ff (3SW/700w) and then it's quite easy if you don't waste.

[Garja]

naked FF and prey he doesnt do my build

[KINGofOsmane]

lolol

[Kaiserklein]

No it's not easy, you need to read perfectly what japan does if you want to win. If japan goes ashi nagi, you need to go almost pure ww or else you'll just get z moved. If they go yumi in base, you simply can't ever push with uhlans (and containing doesn't work either) so I reckon you have to add falcs asap and push (you can trade with skirms until way of the bow but after that it's impossible). If they play age 2 for a while you want to make as few units as possible before aging, because bow/pike is garbage but it's your only colo option.

In fact it's only pretty easy to beat japs as ger when they go too greedy. If you see a port consulate on a non wood start for example, you can just tower rush and idle them a lot, then age. If they wall like kynesie does, you can do the naked ff with a forward tower and probably just win with the timing. What's really annoying to beat is the lowbob low eco style where you can't even siege shrines on the map (so you can't contain) cause they don't shrine, and can't push in early fortress because they're too fast. Regardless of how much eco they cut, they'll have more than you, and better units, so you really can't make any mistake and gotta take only good trades with the proper counter unit composition.

[Sputnik]

I just don't understand why you have to naked ff against 'lowbob low eco style'. The soft spot of this build is low count of shrines, which also grants population. With even 300 wood start no consulate you have max 50 pop if you don't get really good treasures in order to get both cons and barracks at start of the age 2. Then what does japan do? Either yumi clubs which means less wood for additional shrines or ashi club start which can be controlled with xbow start. And every single shrine you kill equals to less market ups less yumi later age 3 time and popped possibility. I would rather to have 90 ish pop against naked ff then having an enemy presence on map as japan

[Sargsyan]

Regardless of how much eco they cut, they'll have more than you

how ? this is overstreching

[Kaiserklein]

Regardless of how much eco they cut, they'll have more than you

how ? this is overstreching

By that I mean that as long as they get market ups and ship 4 vils once, even if they barely shrine, they'll be ahead in eco.

I just don't understand why you have to naked ff against 'lowbob low eco style'. The soft spot of this build is low count of shrines, which also grants population. With even 300 wood start no consulate you have max 50 pop if you don't get really good treasures in order to get both cons and barracks at start of the age 2. Then what does japan do? Either yumi clubs which means less wood for additional shrines or ashi club start which can be controlled with xbow start. And every single shrine you kill equals to less market ups less yumi later age 3 time and popped possibility. I would rather to have 90 ish pop against naked ff then having an enemy presence on map as japan

I don't understand your point.
What I'm saying is that they'll just shrine really close to their base so you can't pike the shrines down. You also don't wanna train bows or whatever because japan is faster (they get 5 free units from consulate) and have better units. So you pretty much have to just age asap. Sure, they don't have the greatest japanese eco, but they do get more eco than ger with just market ups, 4v and the few shrines.
Ashi club start isn't "controlled" by xbows. Ashis and clubs are faster so it's more about defending in base with bows lol. You're not gonna control the age 2, you're just gonna try to age safely.

If you don't see what I mean, I can link you my ger vs jap game during grudge match vs turk. Tbf he did get a cdb + a vil in age 1, which is obviously op, but I think you'll get the point.

[Garja]

I think xbow strats are still good especially vs the aggro style

[Kaiserklein]

I've tried xbow stuff many times and it just doesn't work because when they scout it they just go for 4 shinobis + 5 yumis batch which shuts down any sort of bow aggression. Then if you add uhlan it's useless as they die in jap base as usual. Again there's no shrines to siege on the map either. So you age and japan also does and you're left with useless xbows while they have actual units. Seems just worse than ff to me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you don't see what I mean, I can link you my ger vs jap game during grudge match vs turk. Tbf he did get a cdb + a vil in age 1, which is obviously op, but I think you'll get the point.

I'm interested.

[Kaiserklein]

It's my last highlight on twitch, second to last game.
I would have needed to add falcs earlier but if he goes club nagi and stuff you just get z moved

[deleted_user]

If you don't see what I mean, I can link you my ger vs jap game during grudge match vs turk. Tbf he did get a cdb + a vil in age 1, which is obviously op, but I think you'll get the point.

I'm interested.

Link here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/525025556?t=5190s

[Hazza54321]

Vs aggro jap you cant trade well with age 2 units so you have to ff in the MU if u scout jap cons. Facts.

[deleted_user]

It's funny to watch WW try to kite ashis at their TC, running into edge of map after 2 volleys.

[zoom]

Without getting in over my head, with details, it's the same old: Boom (and pressure, tactically, including denying shrining), exploit Stagecoach (especially on EP7), FI, or just rush. Go for the killing blow at the opportune time, and don't let Japanese get too comfortable, without overcommitting.

I recall watching a good example of how not to play (strategically), recently. I'll try to find it, on Twitch, once I get home, tomorrow. I do think it's a relatively difficult MU for Germans, though.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I recall watching a good example of how not to play (strategically), recently. I'll try to find it, on Twitch, once I get home, tomorrow. I do think it's a relatively difficult MU for Germans, though.

Maybe you should play it against turk and show us the way !

[Kaiserklein]

Without getting in over my head, with details, it's the same old: Boom (and pressure, tactically, including denying shrining), exploit Stagecoach (especially on EP7), FI, or just rush. Go for the killing blow at the opportune time, and don't let Japanese get too comfortable, without overcommitting.

Like I just explained, you can't deny the shrining. Booming is basically shipping 3 SW, which you obviously do. Stagecoach is not possible on arkansas when japan goes low eco like that (he just masses more than you early on). Rushing doesn't work as he gets 5 yumis + 5 clubs/4 shinobis at 5:30 lol. Fi can work as a surprise but obviously japan can just also go up and have a superior industrial.
Pressuring without overcommitting is exactly what I did in that game. It's not enough, you end up losing because you can't win a single fight vs in base yumis, and he never needs mapcontrol. Like I said the only way would be cannons asap I guess, and hope he just keeps going for yumis in base.

[deleted_user0]

Didn't that game go completely how japs want? Sieging TP for free with a few units, then kiting yumi next to your base not forced going out. Now add turk's awesome age 1.

In that game you had options like FI or stagecoach. At least stage forces yumi/club out which is much much better for your uhlans.

[Kaiserklein]

You can't stage in colonial unless you make a lot of units, which is probably not worth it (and you'll eventualy just get fucked if you stay colo, or he'll manage to age before you, or you'll lose the control of the tp line when you age). In fortress I also doubt you can go 1000w and stagecoach while holding the TP 1 screen away from his base.
Again, FI can work as a surprise, but if he realizes it quickly enough and follows you up you're fucked.

[deleted_user0]

You can't stage in colonial unless you make a lot of units, which is probably not worth it (and you'll eventualy just get fucked if you stay colo, or he'll manage to age before you, or you'll lose the control of the tp line when you age). In fortress I also doubt you can go 1000w and stagecoach while holding the TP 1 screen away from his base.
Again, FI can work as a surprise, but if he realizes it quickly enough and follows you up you're fucked.

I think you can go get away with 1k. Yea you shouldn't stage colo but I think you can contain fortress with it. Also, building a tower there could be nice for shipment pops. Germ untouched eco isn't too bad either.

[Kaiserklein]

I honestly don't see a window in that game where I could stagecoach without him stealing a tp