Idea on redesigning the Deck system

[helln00]

I think that the deck system in AOE3 have flaws in how it locks in a player's stratergy and responses pretty early on in the game and also broadcast that strat to the opposing player. So I thought about 2 ways to help adress this, one is argualby pretty hard to implement and probably more of a sugestion for DE if it happens, the other one less complicated. They are not mutually exclusive so if DE implements the entire package I think it would address many of the problems of the Deck system. I just want to float these ideas to see what people think.

1) Allow the player access to the full Home City cards list during game to send but only allow 25 unique cards to be sent in a single game , ie building the deck as the player goes through the game. This would allow alot of strategic flexibility during the game and allows players to pivot their plans in respond to unexpected changes, evet arguably mapscrews would be more manageable.

To prevent overwhelming the player with card choices, the current Deck system would be a sort of quick acess to prevent having to search. I don't think this will be easy to implement so this is the suggestion for DE

2) Instead of showing the player's full deck in summary, just have show the cards as they arrive. This would atleast not completely reveal the player's plans and maybe allow for more ''unique'' or cheesy plans.

Note that if 1) is implemented then 2) is also definitely implemented.

[Kawapasaka]

1) makes scouting too hard, then 2) makes scouting too easy.

[helln00]

then wont doing both make it perfectly balanced? as all things should be?

[Kawapasaka]

No, 2) makes scouting much easier than it already is since you know exactly what your opponent is sending at what time.

[helln00]

The idea for 2 is that the card will only show when the shipment arrives rather than sent, so I think it wouldnt make scouting too easy, in essence you can only react after it has been carried out.

[princeofcarthage]

2nd doesn't make scouting easier. You are in blind about the deck until affer card is sent. Generic cards like 700w doesn't mean much. When you can see whole deck its easier to deduce what opponent is doing. 700c can be ff or even fi something which you can't

[deleted_user]

2nd doesn't make scouting easier. You are in blind about the deck until affer card is sent. Generic cards like 700w doesn't mean much. When you can see whole deck its easier to deduce what opponent is doing. 700c can be ff or even fi something which you can't

You're honestly too low. It definitely does.

[princeofcarthage]

2nd doesn't make scouting easier. You are in blind about the deck until affer card is sent. Generic cards like 700w doesn't mean much. When you can see whole deck its easier to deduce what opponent is doing. 700c can be ff or even fi something which you can't

You're honestly too low. It definitely does.

So are you. It definitely doesn't.

[deleted_user]

1v1 me lmao

[princeofcarthage]

I have uninstalled for past 2 months or so. You maybe better than me, tho that doesn't qualify as high. Another thing, being pro at competitive scene isn't necessarily a qualification required for analysis of game, it's balance and other things. It's the understanding of product that matters.

[deleted_user]

Nice dodge

[princeofcarthage]

Nice bait, not taken.

[Mitoe]

#2 would make scouting essentially irrelevant in most situations

[Amsel_]

#1 is actually a pretty interesting idea.

[helln00]

Irrelavent because you dont need to do it or because it doesnt provide any information?

I can see that it will reduce the ability to tactically suprise your opponent since they know what units have been arrived and so you have little time to pounce before they respond.

I am hoping that this is offset by allowing more strategic surprise when you play your cards. Also hoping that since the opponent only sees the card after it arrives it still gives enough time to push any advantages the shipment gives until the opponent can respond

[Mitoe]

#1 has been discussed before on ESOC. I like it in theory but in practice it doesn't work because of the massive differences in late game upgrades available. Sioux, for example, has a meager handful of Cavalry Upgrades and a single food gathering upgrade, meanwhile Japan has like 8-10 military upgrades, and like 10 economic upgrades.

If you want #1 to ever realistically work you have to make sure that late-game techs (and some situational upgrades for earlier in the game) in AoE3 are significantly more balanced than they are today.

[Mitoe]

Irrelavent because you dont need to do it or because it doesnt provide any information?

I can see that it will reduce the ability to tactically suprise your opponent since they know what units have been arrived and so you have little time to pounce before they respond.

I am hoping that this is offset by allowing more strategic surprise when you play your cards. Also hoping that since the opponent only sees the card after it arrives it still gives enough time to push any advantages the shipment gives until the opponent can respond

Irrelevant because you mostly wouldn't need to do it. In the early stages of the game shipments are such an important part of your build order that you should be able to infer exactly what your opponent is doing based on their shipments alone most of the time.

[helln00]

Irrelavent because you dont need to do it or because it doesnt provide any information?

I can see that it will reduce the ability to tactically suprise your opponent since they know what units have been arrived and so you have little time to pounce before they respond.

I am hoping that this is offset by allowing more strategic surprise when you play your cards. Also hoping that since the opponent only sees the card after it arrives it still gives enough time to push any advantages the shipment gives until the opponent can respond

Irrelevant because you mostly wouldn't need to do it. In the early stages of the game shipments are such an important part of your build order that you should be able to infer exactly what your opponent is doing based on their shipments alone most of the time.

Yeah I can definitely see that, the shipment order is more relavent than the overall shipment pool. Sometimes it does just sound easier to remove the ability to check other people's deck

[helln00]

#1 has been discussed before on ESOC. I like it in theory but in practice it doesn't work because of the massive differences in late game upgrades available. Sioux, for example, has a meager handful of Cavalry Upgrades and a single food gathering upgrade, meanwhile Japan has like 8-10 military upgrades, and like 10 economic upgrades.

If you want #1 to ever realistically work you have to make sure that late-game techs (and some situational upgrades for earlier in the game) in AoE3 are significantly more balanced than they are today.

I think this can be addressed partly by say keeping the 10 cards per age limit or even reducing that a bit( say 9 or 8), so that the in-game trade off sending a card is stiff so that you can't just send all the possible shipments and would be forced to say send lesser shipments.

Some amount of additional balancing will be needed on the individual cards themselves but i think i in this system its possible to make plays to force your opponents to send subpar shipments and therefore reduce their ability to send upgrades.

[Kaiserklein]

2nd doesn't make scouting easier. You are in blind about the deck until affer card is sent. Generic cards like 700w doesn't mean much. When you can see whole deck its easier to deduce what opponent is doing. 700c can be ff or even fi something which you can't

You're honestly too low. It definitely does.

So are you. It definitely doesn't.

Say your opponent ships units, you can instantly see it in his deck. So while he comes to push you it gives you time to just adapt to his unit composition. That enough is so big you can definitely say it makes scouting much easier.
And there are so many other examples, like spotting an age up cause he sent gold, spotting he's greeding (vc, silk road, vil shipments, schooners, anything), etc.

[RefluxSemantic]

There are many times where I wish I knew exactly what stuff my opponent was shipping at any point in time. It's really OP to know when he's sending gold to age up, or when they are shipping units, without even having to scout.

I also don't think the #1 suggestion makes up for how much stronger scouting becomes because of #2. Actually, I don't even ship many of the cards in my decks. There's like a core of 20ish cards that are just so much better than the rest that the rest is irrelevant.

[rsy]

Dude @princeofcarthage can u use the foe system on sircallen?

[princeofcarthage]

Dude @princeofcarthage can u use the foe system on sircallen?

Why, he is my buddy!

[princeofcarthage]

Show hidden quotes

2nd doesn't make scouting easier. You are in blind about the deck until affer card is sent. Generic cards like 700w doesn't mean much. When you can see whole deck its easier to deduce what opponent is doing. 700c can be ff or even fi something which you can't

You're honestly too low. It definitely does.

So are you. It definitely doesn't.

Say your opponent ships units, you can instantly see it in his deck. So while he comes to push you it gives you time to just adapt to his unit composition. That enough is so big you can definitely say it makes scouting much easier.
And there are so many other examples, like spotting an age up cause he sent gold, spotting he's greeding (vc, silk road, vil shipments, schooners, anything), etc.

I see your point. @deleted_user4 see this is how you explain things and be constructive while saying you are wrong, rather than just saying "you low buddy, you wrong".

[chris1089]

I like the idea of number 1, but I see how it would be impossible to implement without radically changing and/or adding cards to an extent that would massively change many civs.
On number 2, I agree with many players that say it makes scouting far too easy. @helln00 the way you responded to these makes me think you could probably improve a lot by learning how to scout better. I found Mitoe's guide to scouting helpful, as well as just trying to scout whenever the game was slow.