treaty tier

[goethe]

im curious what is the general tier for NR45 games on eso?
my guess would be something like this but then again i never play nr 45 so i don't know.

1 India
2 France
3 Japan
4 China
5 Ottomans
6 Aztec
7 Iroquois
8 Germany
9 Russia
10 Dutch
11 Portugal
12 Britain
13 spain
14 sioux

[iNcog]

I think France and Russia are top

then civs like ports japan germany ?

[Good ol Ivan]

Oh come on, I don't even play treaty but it's common knowledge India is not OP, they are hard and their units train slowly - while spain is considered above average without being OP (unction). And why the fuck would you think ottos are above average... Geez.
I'd say the list is like this:

1. France
2. Ports (50 range mortars + 20 range goons)
3. Russia
4. Japan (I honestly don't know where to place japan, their units train slow, they have a 75 villie eco, but perhaps they are deadly at early stages because of daimyos and tokugawa)
5. Spain
6. Brits (cow boom + good unit composition?)
7. Germany
8. China (not so sure about them - but I'd guess they are about average with old han + 119 vill eco, but fall behind because of their lack of cannons and good goons? again I could be wrong I guess)
9. Aztecs
10. India
11. Ottos
For these 3 civs I'd say in depends on whether its a team game or a 1v1, and whether it has water or not. Dutch are easily an UP civ because of a 50 villie eco, Sioux lack walls, and well Iros have a 119 villie eco and all, but they depend far too much on wood and lack factories.
12. Iros
13. Sioux
14. Dutch

But I could easily be wrong because I despise treaty and never played treaties above 10 mins since 2007 or so.

[zoom]

Abus Guns.

[Good ol Ivan]

Abus Guns.

Abus guns train slowly and ottos lack proper anti cav.

[Papist]

It goes France, Japan, Russia in the top tier 100%. Germany, Port, Spain, and Brit are in the next tier and kind of hard to chart, as they all have different perks in different situations (e.g. if Spain fights in the natives choke on Andes they have an advantage because their missionaries cannot be flanked). I don't know about the rest. Sioux and China are entirely map dependent civs, which makes it impossible to definitively give them a spot on the civ tier.

[adderbrain5]

Abus Guns.

Abus guns train slowly and ottos lack proper anti cav.

I find janissaries to be highly effective. Even FU cuir lose to them mix with CA

[adderbrain5]

im curious what is the general tier for NR45 games on eso?
my guess would be something like this but then again i never play nr 45 so i don''t know.

1 India
2 France
3 Japan
4 China
5 Ottomans
6 Aztec
7 Iroquois
8 Germany
9 Russia
10 Dutch
11 Portugal
12 Britain
13 spain
14 sioux

all you really need to know is that in NR40 and above, when someone hosts "no OP" by OP they always mean French, Russians, Japs.

[momuuu]

From years of watching the treaty pros argue

Tier 1 (OP)
France - Japan - Russia
Tier 1.5 (some players considered them OP)
China
Tier 2(good)
Spain - Ports - Brits - Germans
Tier 3(bad)
Iro, Ottos, India, Dutch, Sioux, Aztec

Not really sure how they are ordered after tier 2 exactly, but the rest is pretty accurate I think.

Edit: let me quote someone on agecomm who seemed to know whats up:List assumes 1v1 andes NR40

OP civs

#1 France. They have a 100 settler eco in only 80 pop meaning you can field an extra 20 pop over everyone else in the game. They have the best cav in gendarmes, the best skirms in voltigeurs and have the best non-aura cannons with one card and can train them. To add insult to injury they can fur trade and have a massive amount of gold at at the end of the treaty time. They are the perfect treaty civ with no true drawbacks and no true counter.

#2 Japan. Japan gets a near 100 settler eco with only 75 settlers and has some pretty powerful units under a daimyo's aura. The japanese have a good amount of eco cards to work with meaning they have a very competitive eco. The ability to use the Daimyo or Shogun as a mobile barracks means that Japan is the best running civ in the game. They can easily sneak a shogun into your base with a hole left in a wall by trees or by running down the trade route and spamming mortars at your back door which has the player playing defense against the japanese player the entire game trying to track down and snipe those daimyos. The good news is that if you manage to destroy the shogunate wonder then the japanese player's military trains pretty slow and can't be as easily spammed. Plus this kills their ability to make daimyos and shoguns and thus kills their ability to run. Getting to the japanese base can be hard though as most japanese players will have you on the ropes the whole time with running.

#3 Russia. Russia is the 2nd best running civ in the game. Their ability to quickly make forts with musketeers by using national redoubt and sevostopol (sp?) means that you can be fighting the russians somewhere while 8 muskets have snuck off to make forts behind your lines or on the other side of your base. Russia's OPness doesn't stop there. They also can build OPrichniks which melt through walls like butter and will wipe out your entire eco before you can kill them all. Just like Japan, Russia has you on the defense the entire match until they run out of resources, which is not likely considering that Russia has no lack of eco cards and a fast boom combined with cheaper and cost effective units.

Other civs

#4 China. One reason, a never ending economy. While China may not have that great of a military, they more than make up for it with a 119 settler economy that they can support with a 220 pop cap. While China doesn't have to cow boom, they can, which results in even more resources. With an unmolested eco, the chinese will always out eco you. Always, Unless you play something like France and laugh at the chinese anti-cav, which sucks. If china has any weakness, its their train times which can be managed by playing on andes. The natives on Andes also help with China's anticav problem.

#5 Spain. Spain is a very good civ if they cannot be flanked, such as fighting in the cliffs on andes. The reason for this their unction missionaries which add exponential damage to their units. This makes their normal ranged muskets, skirms and cannons top tier as they can roll over enemy troops. In addition to missionaries healing their cannons in battle. If spain has a weakness, its their less than stellar economy. While spain doesnt lack many eco cards, their boom is nothing special and just doesn't come out as good as other civs meaning without excellent micro of military units the spanish player will run out of resources fast.

#6 Ports. The Ports have an extremely easy boom getting a TC for each age up and are not lacking much in the eco card department. The Ports have the advantage of some of the best ranged units in the game. When not in melee, cassadores are much better than skirmishers of other civs and ports have the best Dragoons in the game due to their range. Port muskets are also very good units pretty much tied with brits. Ports also have a major artillery advantage of having engineering school which makes artillery train much faster than other civs. And perhaps the biggest port advantage is their super long range mortars which will always destroy your walls from way back behind their lines. You pretty much end up suiciding your slow training culvs to try and snipe them. The ports can easily destroy your forward base while sitting high and pretty with a spam of ranged units.

#7 Germans. The Germans have one of the best economies in the game thanks to settler wagons and guild artisans card. Their Dopplesoldners are the best anticav that can be trained en masse with relative ease. Their Uhlans make short work of skirms and artillery but die fast to anticav. While not as good as cass/goon combo of portugal, the combo skirms+war wagons/culvs will wear down most pushing civs by just playing the game of resources. If the germans have a weakness, it is their pop and gold heavy units and the fact that a lot of time uhlans die before they are able to reach the enemy skirms or artillery. I personally would rather have hussars over uhlans. Slow training and average artillery is another problem for germans which can be mitigated some what by the 1 heavy cannon + 4 uhlans infinite card.

#8 Britain. Britain has a solid eco and is the best cow booming civ in the game. With proper macro management, a player can have only a few settlers on food and a ton on coin. While Brits don't have to cow boom, they are significantly stronger if they do. Brits have the advantage of having pretty much the best Musketeers in the game and one of the best skirmishers. Some players ignore the imperial longbowman, but they shouldn't as this super 26 ranged infantry does 68 damage in the time it takes a German skirm to do 34. Twice the damage over time vs german skirms. Imp Longbows are awesome. The brits also have rockets that have a very big splash radius that can easily take out or significantly weaken packed infantry. Brits also have a infinite 2 rocket card that can be sent in age 4. Brit hussars are also nothing to scuff at, nor are their dragoons, which minus the extra range, are as strong as port dragoons. If brits have a weakness, its slow training artillery but this is helped by the 2 rocket card. Also the amount of macro management that is needed to maintain cows is a disadvantage as it requires more attention than say a German or Port player.

#9 Iroquois. As long as the map has ample wood or a trade post that can be set to wood, the iroquois are a force to be reckoned with. The Iroquois have both the advantage of both a serious cow boom and fur trade which means that they can amass a ton of raw resources in addition to a potential 119 settler economy. The iroquois have one of the most OP units in the game, the mantlet. This 1 pop monster can have over 1000 hp with 50% ranged resist. The forest prowler is a very good skirmisher unit and their light cannons are some of the best cannons in the game due to their multi-use nature and ease of micro since there is no time to switch between limber and bombard modes. A lot of culvs can be sniped while switching to fire at light cannons. If Iroquois have a weakness, it is their heavy wood dependence that can cost them the game. But as long as the wood is a' flowin, the iroquois are a' goin. They also have a weakness to cavalry as tomahawks cost wood and musket riders aren't that great, but if playing on andes then natives make pretty good anticav for them. The iroquois do have battlefield construction which means they can keep up the forward bases.

#10 Ottomans. While the Ottomans have the advantage of extremely powerful units, they are lacking severely in economy cards. The Ottoman boom is straightforward with free settlers and they can age up fairly quickly, they just can't manage to keep up with the ecos of other more powerful civs. Some say that ottomans lack good anticav I find this to be sort of true. Yes Janissaries are not that great at stopping hand cavalry, cavalry archers actually are. 50 FU imperial cavalry archers in a no micro fight will kill 40 FU imperial gendarmes with relative ease while 50 port or brit FU dragoons will actually lose a no micro fight. The reason people don't like cavalry archers is their lack of ranged resistance which makes them lose harder to skirms and their delay before firing which makes them harder to micro and worse to chase down running cav. But for guarding artillery, cav archers are actually pretty good. The Ottomans also have battlefield construction that allows jans to make forward bases as they make ground. This is a huge advantage as you only need settlers for making forward walls. Ottoman main weakness lies in slow training time for jans but this is sort of made up for by battlefield construction. And also their ability to fight ranged cavalry as abus guns only do .75 their normal damage to ranged cavalry while being pop heavy and cavalry archers are not cost effective at fighting ranged cavalry. And as mentioned, the Ottoman economy can't hang with other civs.

#11 India. The Indians have an excellent economy that is enhanced by the karni-mata. The Indians also can fur trade as well as having trickle cards for wood and an infinite wood card in age 4 meaning they really aren't lacking at all in resources. Most of the Indian units are very strong. Sepoys are the best musket type unit in the game not counting aura boosted ashigaru musketeers. Gurkha's excel at their job as well. Indians have a note of lacking artillery though as siege elephants are countered by both culvs and skirms. Consulate armies from the brits include culvs so that helps. The biggest draw back to india is their train time, Andes helps as does having battlefield construction and the faster building card, but all in all they are a harder civ to play and do well with.

#12 Aztecs. The Aztec economy is quite good. They get ample cards that boost food gathering rate and an infinite coin card in age 4. Their boom is fairly straightforward and they get warrior priests which are better than settlers at dancing. The Aztecs get some very strong military units like the eagle runner knight which is honestly OP and the jaguar prowler knight. The biggest problem with Aztecs is fighting massed ranged infanty. Every time I've played aztecs, I just get rolled over by a massive number of musket type infantry combined with skirmisher type infantry. The only time you ever need to build anything else against the aztecs is when they spam arrow knights which lose hard to hand cav and are pop heavy. The Aztecs have an ace up their sleeve with their big button techs. Essentially at 40 minutes they can hit you with a 200 pop army. But if you manage to survive their initial push, then it is just a matter of spamming ranged heavy infantry with skirmisher back up until they run out of resources. Just a way to build a few cannons and Aztecs would be extremely good.

#13 Dutch. The Dutch seem like they would be amazing in treaty. A 150 pop army? Sign me up! But sadly the Dutch are so coin heavy that their banks just can't keep up with the economies of other civs. Playing on andes, the Dutch player will eventually have to be fed to stay in. Other maps like saguenay or maps with the cree natives, the dutch fare better with cree courier de bois boosted by the native limit card the dutch have. Also water maps with whales can keep the Dutch afloat but on andes the Dutch just can't compete with their weak eco. Dutch skirms and halberdiers are very good as are their cav. Due to their higher pop they are also able to field more artillery but it just doesn't matter if you can't keep the resources flowing.

#14 Sioux. The Sioux can be amazing in the right hands. The entire civ in treaty is kind of a one trick pony with a dog box to raid the enemy economy. If you manage to survive the dog box onslaught, you will easily out eco the sioux player who can't even build walls. They can be better in team games but for the most part they seam to count on their initial push and then patter out.

[goethe]

Oh come on, I don''t even play treaty but it''s common knowledge India is not OP, they are hard and their units train slowly - while spain is considered above average without being OP (unction). And why the fuck would you think ottos are above average... Geez.
I''d say the list is like this:

1. France
2. Ports (50 range mortars + 20 range goons)
3. Russia
4. Japan (I honestly don''t know where to place japan, their units train slow, they have a 75 villie eco, but perhaps they are deadly at early stages because of daimyos and tokugawa)
5. Spain
6. Brits (cow boom + good unit composition?)
7. Germany
8. China (not so sure about them - but I''d guess they are about average with old han + 119 vill eco, but fall behind because of their lack of cannons and good goons? again I could be wrong I guess)
9. Aztecs
10. India
11. Ottos
For these 3 civs I''d say in depends on whether its a team game or a 1v1, and whether it has water or not. Dutch are easily an UP civ because of a 50 villie eco, Sioux lack walls, and well Iros have a 119 villie eco and all, but they depend far too much on wood and lack factories.
12. Iros
13. Sioux
14. Dutch

But I could easily be wrong because I despise treaty and never played treaties above 10 mins since 2007 or so.

I don''t need snarky posts directed at me, I''ve played maybe a dozen games on eso so if you have to vent please do it elsewhere.

[Kynesie]

4. Japan (I honestly don''t know where to place japan, their units train slow, they have a 75 villie eco, but perhaps they are deadly at early stages because of daimyos and tokugawa)

their units train slow ?
their units train very fast 10/10 with daimyos

[_H2O]

This is treaty train speeds

[Good ol Ivan]

Oh come on, I dont even play treaty but its common knowledge India is not OP, they are hard and their units train slowly - while spain is considered above average without being OP (unction). And why the fuck would you think ottos are above average... Geez.
Id say the list is like this:

1. France
2. Ports (50 range mortars + 20 range goons)
3. Russia
4. Japan (I honestly dont know where to place japan, their units train slow, they have a 75 villie eco, but perhaps they are deadly at early stages because of daimyos and tokugawa)
5. Spain
6. Brits (cow boom + good unit composition?)
7. Germany
8. China (not so sure about them - but Id guess they are about average with old han + 119 vill eco, but fall behind because of their lack of cannons and good goons? again I could be wrong I guess)
9. Aztecs
10. India
11. Ottos
For these 3 civs Id say in depends on whether its a team game or a 1v1, and whether it has water or not. Dutch are easily an UP civ because of a 50 villie eco, Sioux lack walls, and well Iros have a 119 villie eco and all, but they depend far too much on wood and lack factories.
12. Iros
13. Sioux
14. Dutch

But I could easily be wrong because I despise treaty and never played treaties above 10 mins since 2007 or so.

I dont need snarky posts directed at me, Ive played maybe a dozen games on eso so if you have to vent please do it elsewhere.

No reason to whine. If a little sarcasm can offend you so easily Id strongly advise you getting psychological help, who knows what happens next time you use the internet.

[momuuu]

They dont have the -40% card that european civs have.

The general meta used to be on andes, where the natives give you a boost to training times aswell.

[goethe]

I dont need snarky posts directed at me, Ive played maybe a dozen games on eso so if you have to vent please do it elsewhere.

No reason to whine. If a little sarcasm can offend you so easily Id strongly advise you getting psychological help, who knows what happens next time you use the internet.

You need to chill your tits man psychological help? How old are you six?

[Good ol Ivan]

No reason to whine. If a little sarcasm can offend you so easily Id strongly advise you getting psychological help, who knows what happens next time you use the internet.

You need to chill your tits man

Thats exactly what Im trying to say.
Chill, no one is trying to make fun of you through a little sarcasm, we are all sure you are a pretty smart, mature and interesting guy ')

[goethe]

"Sarcasm is the language of the weak"

[Marco1698]

im curious what is the general tier for NR45 games on eso?
my guess would be something like this but then again i never play nr 45 so i don''t know.

1 India?
2 France
3 Japan
4 China?
5 Ottomans?
6 Aztec?
7 Iroquois?
8 Germany
9 Russia?
10 Dutch?
11 Portugal ?
12 Britain?
13 spain?
14 sioux

fre jap. Jap op shrines boom fre op cuirs

[Good ol Ivan]

"Sarcasm is the language of the weak"

I can only imagine what kind of language suits you the best then.

[Good ol Ivan]

[quote author="@jerom" source="/post/32132/thread" timestamp="1438126903"]From years of watching the treaty pros argue

Tier 1 (OP)
France - Japan - Russia
Tier 1.5 (some players considered them OP)
China
Tier 2(good)
Spain - Ports - Brits - Germans
Tier 3(bad)
Iro, Ottos, India, Dutch, Sioux, Aztec

Not really sure how they are ordered after tier 2 exactly, but the rest is pretty accurate I think.

Edit: let me quote someone on agecomm who seemed to know whats up:List assumes 1v1 andes NR40

OP civs

#1 France. They have a 100 settler eco in only 80 pop meaning you can field an extra 20 pop over everyone else in the game. They have the best cav in gendarmes, the best skirms in voltigeurs and have the best non-aura cannons with one card and can train them. To add insult to injury they can fur trade and have a massive amount of gold at at the end of the treaty time. They are the perfect treaty civ with no true drawbacks and no true counter.

#2 Japan. Japan gets a near 100 settler eco with only 75 settlers and has some pretty powerful units under a daimyo's aura. The japanese have a good amount of eco cards to work with meaning they have a very competitive eco. The ability to use the Daimyo or Shogun as a mobile barracks means that Japan is the best running civ in the game. They can easily sneak a shogun into your base with a hole left in a wall by trees or by running down the trade route and spamming mortars at your back door which has the player playing defense against the japanese player the entire game trying to track down and snipe those daimyos. The good news is that if you manage to destroy the shogunate wonder then the japanese player's military trains pretty slow and can't be as easily spammed. Plus this kills their ability to make daimyos and shoguns and thus kills their ability to run. Getting to the japanese base can be hard though as most japanese players will have you on the ropes the whole time with running.

#3 Russia. Russia is the 2nd best running civ in the game. Their ability to quickly make forts with musketeers by using national redoubt and sevostopol (sp?) means that you can be fighting the russians somewhere while 8 muskets have snuck off to make forts behind your lines or on the other side of your base. Russia's OPness doesn't stop there. They also can build OPrichniks which melt through walls like butter and will wipe out your entire eco before you can kill them all. Just like Japan, Russia has you on the defense the entire match until they run out of resources, which is not likely considering that Russia has no lack of eco cards and a fast boom combined with cheaper and cost effective units.

Other civs

#4 China. One reason, a never ending economy. While China may not have that great of a military, they more than make up for it with a 119 settler economy that they can support with a 220 pop cap. While China doesn't have to cow boom, they can, which results in even more resources. With an unmolested eco, the chinese will always out eco you. Always, Unless you play something like France and laugh at the chinese anti-cav, which sucks. If china has any weakness, its their train times which can be managed by playing on andes. The natives on Andes also help with China's anticav problem.

#5 Spain. Spain is a very good civ if they cannot be flanked, such as fighting in the cliffs on andes. The reason for this their unction missionaries which add exponential damage to their units. This makes their normal ranged muskets, skirms and cannons top tier as they can roll over enemy troops. In addition to missionaries healing their cannons in battle. If spain has a weakness, its their less than stellar economy. While spain doesnt lack many eco cards, their boom is nothing special and just doesn't come out as good as other civs meaning without excellent micro of military units the spanish player will run out of resources fast.

#6 Ports. The Ports have an extremely easy boom getting a TC for each age up and are not lacking much in the eco card department. The Ports have the advantage of some of the best ranged units in the game. When not in melee, cassadores are much better than skirmishers of other civs and ports have the best Dragoons in the game due to their range. Port muskets are also very good units pretty much tied with brits. Ports also have a major artillery advantage of having engineering school which makes artillery train much faster than other civs. And perhaps the biggest port advantage is their super long range mortars which will always destroy your walls from way back behind their lines. You pretty much end up suiciding your slow training culvs to try and snipe them. The ports can easily destroy your forward base while sitting high and pretty with a spam of ranged units.

#7 Germans. The Germans have one of the best economies in the game thanks to settler wagons and guild artisans card. Their Dopplesoldners are the best anticav that can be trained en masse with relative ease. Their Uhlans make short work of skirms and artillery but die fast to anticav. While not as good as cass/goon combo of portugal, the combo skirms+war wagons/culvs will wear down most pushing civs by just playing the game of resources. If the germans have a weakness, it is their pop and gold heavy units and the fact that a lot of time uhlans die before they are able to reach the enemy skirms or artillery. I personally would rather have hussars over uhlans. Slow training and average artillery is another problem for germans which can be mitigated some what by the 1 heavy cannon + 4 uhlans infinite card.

#8 Britain. Britain has a solid eco and is the best cow booming civ in the game. With proper macro management, a player can have only a few settlers on food and a ton on coin. While Brits don't have to cow boom, they are significantly stronger if they do. Brits have the advantage of having pretty much the best Musketeers in the game and one of the best skirmishers. Some players ignore the imperial longbowman, but they shouldn't as this super 26 ranged infantry does 68 damage in the time it takes a German skirm to do 34. Twice the damage over time vs german skirms. Imp Longbows are awesome. The brits also have rockets that have a very big splash radius that can easily take out or significantly weaken packed infantry. Brits also have a infinite 2 rocket card that can be sent in age 4. Brit hussars are also nothing to scuff at, nor are their dragoons, which minus the extra range, are as strong as port dragoons. If brits have a weakness, its slow training artillery but this is helped by the 2 rocket card. Also the amount of macro management that is needed to maintain cows is a disadvantage as it requires more attention than say a German or Port player.

#9 Iroquois. As long as the map has ample wood or a trade post that can be set to wood, the iroquois are a force to be reckoned with. The Iroquois have both the advantage of both a serious cow boom and fur trade which means that they can amass a ton of raw resources in addition to a potential 119 settler economy. The iroquois have one of the most OP units in the game, the mantlet. This 1 pop monster can have over 1000 hp with 50% ranged resist. The forest prowler is a very good skirmisher unit and their light cannons are some of the best cannons in the game due to their multi-use nature and ease of micro since there is no time to switch between limber and bombard modes. A lot of culvs can be sniped while switching to fire at light cannons. If Iroquois have a weakness, it is their heavy wood dependence that can cost them the game. But as long as the wood is a' flowin, the iroquois are a' goin. They also have a weakness to cavalry as tomahawks cost wood and musket riders aren't that great, but if playing on andes then natives make pretty good anticav for them. The iroquois do have battlefield construction which means they can keep up the forward bases.

#10 Ottomans. While the Ottomans have the advantage of extremely powerful units, they are lacking severely in economy cards. The Ottoman boom is straightforward with free settlers and they can age up fairly quickly, they just can't manage to keep up with the ecos of other more powerful civs. Some say that ottomans lack good anticav I find this to be sort of true. Yes Janissaries are not that great at stopping hand cavalry, cavalry archers actually are. 50 FU imperial cavalry archers in a no micro fight will kill 40 FU imperial gendarmes with relative ease while 50 port or brit FU dragoons will actually lose a no micro fight. The reason people don't like cavalry archers is their lack of ranged resistance which makes them lose harder to skirms and their delay before firing which makes them harder to micro and worse to chase down running cav. But for guarding artillery, cav archers are actually pretty good. The Ottomans also have battlefield construction that allows jans to make forward bases as they make ground. This is a huge advantage as you only need settlers for making forward walls. Ottoman main weakness lies in slow training time for jans but this is sort of made up for by battlefield construction. And also their ability to fight ranged cavalry as abus guns only do .75 their normal damage to ranged cavalry while being pop heavy and cavalry archers are not cost effective at fighting ranged cavalry. And as mentioned, the Ottoman economy can't hang with other civs.

#11 India. The Indians have an excellent economy that is enhanced by the karni-mata. The Indians also can fur trade as well as having trickle cards for wood and an infinite wood card in age 4 meaning they really aren't lacking at all in resources. Most of the Indian units are very strong. Sepoys are the best musket type unit in the game not counting aura boosted ashigaru musketeers. Gurkha's excel at their job as well. Indians have a note of lacking artillery though as siege elephants are countered by both culvs and skirms. Consulate armies from the brits include culvs so that helps. The biggest draw back to india is their train time, Andes helps as does having battlefield construction and the faster building card, but all in all they are a harder civ to play and do well with.

#12 Aztecs. The Aztec economy is quite good. They get ample cards that boost food gathering rate and an infinite coin card in age 4. Their boom is fairly straightforward and they get warrior priests which are better than settlers at dancing. The Aztecs get some very strong military units like the eagle runner knight which is honestly OP and the jaguar prowler knight. The biggest problem with Aztecs is fighting massed ranged infanty. Every time I've played aztecs, I just get rolled over by a massive number of musket type infantry combined with skirmisher type infantry. The only time you ever need to build anything else against the aztecs is when they spam arrow knights which lose hard to hand cav and are pop heavy. The Aztecs have an ace up their sleeve with their big button techs. Essentially at 40 minutes they can hit you with a 200 pop army. But if you manage to survive their initial push, then it is just a matter of spamming ranged heavy infantry with skirmisher back up until they run out of resources. Just a way to build a few cannons and Aztecs would be extremely good.

#13 Dutch. The Dutch seem like they would be amazing in treaty. A 150 pop army? Sign me up! But sadly the Dutch are so coin heavy that their banks just can't keep up with the economies of other civs. Playing on andes, the Dutch player will eventually have to be fed to stay in. Other maps like saguenay or maps with the cree natives, the dutch fare better with cree courier de bois boosted by the native limit card the dutch have. Also water maps with whales can keep the Dutch afloat but on andes the Dutch just can't compete with their weak eco. Dutch skirms and halberdiers are very good as are their cav. Due to their higher pop they are also able to field more artillery but it just doesn't matter if you can't keep the resources flowing.

#14 Sioux. The Sioux can be amazing in the right hands. The entire civ in treaty is kind of a one trick pony with a dog box to raid the enemy economy. If you manage to survive the dog box onslaught, you will easily out eco the sioux player who can't even build walls. They can be better in team games but for the most part they seam to count on their initial push and then patter out.[/quote]lol you actually wrote all that.

[goethe]

Ivan your language shows that your either 5 years old, a troll, or both, in any case your clearly incapable of having an intelligent discussion with so I am closing our dialogue and will furthermore save my time responding as you are to far to immature.

You'll also be pleased to know I've contacted a cooch cleaner who is more than capable of clearing the sand from your vagina.
Good day and best of luck in all your future endeavors.

[Good ol Ivan]

You''ll also be pleased to know I''ve contacted a cooch cleaner who is more than capable of clearing the sand from your vagina.
Good day and best of luck in all your future endeavors.

If anything you are the one who appears to be angry and take the internet too personally though, lol.
But whatever man, peace.

[Papist]

I agree with Jerom's organization of the civs in the form of tiers rather than staright up ranks. Because so many tr civs rely on the map (e.g. India, Iro, and China are screwed is there are no large forests), it is difficult to say which is better than the rest.

And a special word for China, my favorite tr civ. China is immensely powerful if not plain OP if they have a chokepoint to fight in, which is why one sees them pummeling everyone on nr 55 ori, but dying to pressure on the open fields of andes. They have a great cav combo that manages to tak and smash at the same time, one that is only outperformed by cuir (but what isn't?)They are a very diverse civ, and have access to armies that cost both wood and coin, which prevents them from draining too quickly in a grueling fight. However, their coin armies are inferior to the expensive wood armies, which can put them in an awkward spot. If a Chinese player finds his wood supply depleted, he will be stuck making either changdao/arq (which is worse than ckn/pike) or ckn/steppe, which provides no decent anticav (steppes are a crappier version of a sowar). Therefore, it is important he limit his losses. And where can this be accomplished? On a map with chokes of course!