Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by zoom »

As previously mentioned, an ESOC Patch update, currently scheduled for a March 29th release, is in development. Building upon the success of EP7(.1), this allows the opportunity to make some balance changes for the immediate improvement of – and testing on – the patch. Ideally, a future update which will require yet more effort and time, will feature further, and equally carefully considered, rebalancing of age-up options, consulate allies, mercenaries and minor natives.

I regret being practically unable to make this post any earlier, with regards to the recent balance poll and the release schedule, as dictated by ESOC's schedule. Like this thread, the one you are currently reading will be used for the compilation, continued development and discussion of changes for said update, and its content remains subject to change, until the update – which will also feature other content – has been released.

Please understand that I will be limiting the extent of this particular update, to a point that I am confident does not compromise the quality of the result to any significant extent. That criterium will also form the basis for the adoption of poll results into changes for this smaller, sooner update, with even greater emphasis on inter-civilization balance. We expect to have a beta release out, this weekend, and remain prepared to address any potential pressing issues, post-release. You'll notice that several of the below changes are a direct (or indirect, in some cases) result of balance poll results, and that for reasons of efficiency and practicality, this update has a general focus on buffing weaker civilizations.

Thank you for your continued feedback!
:flowers:
Current draft, with comments
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

"Trading Post minor native alliance trickle increased from 0.7xp per second to 0.8xp per second"

This shows the biggest flow in the current EP philosophy : stubborness. You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable. Native TPs aren't supposed to give exp so more than "0/sec" should be nerfed, not buffed.
User avatar
European Union Scroogie
Lancer
Posts: 740
Joined: Dec 5, 2015
ESO: Scroogie
GameRanger ID: 10056919

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Scroogie »

I really like the changes, especially the focus on encouraging diversity in strategies. I would like to add, Iros Musket Riders should get their range resist reduced to 0.2 as well, since they are arguably the best goon in the game right now. Maybe its even worth considering to nerf their hp by a tiny amount.
Me being slightly ahead vs H2O: Image
User avatar
European Union Scroogie
Lancer
Posts: 740
Joined: Dec 5, 2015
ESO: Scroogie
GameRanger ID: 10056919

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Scroogie »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:"Trading Post minor native alliance trickle increased from 0.7xp per second to 0.8xp per second"

This shows the biggest flow in the current EP philosophy : stubborness. You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable. Native TPs aren't supposed to give exp so more than "0/sec" should be nerfed, not buffed.
I really like the nat trickle, makes some of them quite good and gives new strats on their respective maps.
Me being slightly ahead vs H2O: Image
User avatar
Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 05
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mar 31, 2015
ESO: EAGLEMUT
Clan: WPact

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by EAGLEMUT »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable.
Buffing stuffs until they become viable is... bad? Unviable stuff is... good? :hmm:
I don't think I can agree on that.
Image
momuuu wrote: theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by kevinitalien »

I am not against the trickle of native XP, but I do not like too much the change of technology or limit of natives tbh, natives must not change imo
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by kevinitalien »

"Manor House "kill" bounty increased from 54xp to 108xp", tbh i like this change
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: 팀 하우스

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by n0el »

Good changes. Afraid some might be too strong but we will see in the EPL.
mad cuz bad
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by RefluxSemantic »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable.
Buffing stuffs until they become viable is... bad? Unviable stuff is... good? :hmm:
I don't think I can agree on that.
Why is more viable stuff good?
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by RefluxSemantic »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable.
Buffing stuffs until they become viable is... bad? Unviable stuff is... good? :hmm:
I don't think I can agree on that.
Why is more viable stuff good?
Aoe3 is currently based on civs not being able to do certain things within certain niches. Strategy is mostly about understanding your weaknesses and your opponents weaknesses and then using that to find the right build order. When more things become viable, you're essentially reducing this aspect of the game. We know what we have right now works, that's what we all like and have been playing for years. I don't think there's much reason to believe that having more things be viable makes the game better.
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2232
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by dansil92 »

Dutch

– "4 Hussars" shipment increased to 5 Hussars —

I like this a lot. Dutch really reall lacks an 'anti-skirmisher' shipment age iii (no falcs, up until now no viable heavy cav ship). This is a small but welcome addition

– "Long-range Infantry Hitpoints" shipment increased to +60% Crossbowman and +20% Skirmisher hitpoints (both from +15%)

180 hp vet crossbows :hmm:

– Per-shipment experience points required decreased to 70% (from 75%) — This buff will ensure Spanish world domination; nevermore shall the sun set on Piroshiki.

Spain is life spain is love. Archaic now increased in viability as well. Love it

Additionally: i think the mahout-rajput buffs are kinda scary. Especially together. While melee combos aren't always viable this may be... too viable. Its now like rodelero lancer, except honoured rajputs are now halberdier level damage. May never be used, hard to say but I'd be terrified to face that combo unless i have very, very good goons.

I like the native trade post change. As a mapper it gives me more options lol... I think im gonna remove the trade route from Ganges and revert it back to my original design.

The 'shaman' change is interesting, as it now represents 500 wood and 120 building vill seconds. It also leaves fast age to fortress. May be overpowered. I still maintain my original suggestion of "1 war hut travois 1 warrior priest." Only testing will tell if this buff is too much. *stay tuned!*
Image
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8050
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by Hazza54321 »

why buff nat tp its good enough already.

why let russian vills train faster when they already scale well.

why increase wh to the aztec shaman politicians when theyre good enough already.

why does team chonindo no longer affect hunting when normal eco theory does.

long range infantry hitpoints increased xbwo 60% and skirms 20%. yeah lets spam vet bow with 60% hp as industrial germans.


nerfing cavalary scouts when its not even that strong of a card to begin with seems completely pointless.

lowering the inca limit makes no sense consider the major downsides to going nats is a small build limit.

nerfing rods doesnt make a whole lot of sense the unit wasnt even considered op by anyone the previous patch.

mass cavalry cost increased i dont get why its fine as it is.

mahout multiplier vs heavy inf being 1x seems like it would be broken in MUs with no or low amounts of goons. jap russia brit, and totally fucking useless vs skirms and goon civs, which is the exact opposite of what you want overall.

removing siege trooper tag from pumas seems risky af especially as youre not lowering their siege
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by chronique »

Sometime i need some explaination. As, like everybody know, a 100% spain player, i can't understand why you want reduce the rodo attack where nobody have never talk to me about that, and not do somethink about caba where everybody talk to me about that.

I like the xp buff, someone can tell me what is the difference between this spain and nilla spain, and why spain are top civ on nilla? Because if EP spain have the same xp gain plus caba plus spanish gold plus age 3 time reaching reduced plus unction.
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: 팀 하우스

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by n0el »

Ya rods are pretty shit. Tweaking cab seems like a better idea.
mad cuz bad
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2232
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by dansil92 »

n0el wrote:Ya rods are pretty shit. Tweaking cab seems like a better idea.
This i do agree with. I am unsure why rajputs, an already ridiculously powerful unit (as far as melee infantry goes) that has been buffed 3 straight patches, possessing both halb-level attack and rodelero level speed, yet maintaining an extremely good multiplier, for an already very strong civ were buffed

While

Rodeleros, a generally underperforming unit with trash damage and mediocre multipliers, for a generally weak civ were nerfed :hmm:
Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by Mitoe »

Hazza54321 wrote:why buff nat tp its good enough already.

why let russian vills train faster when they already scale well.

why increase wh to the aztec shaman politicians when theyre good enough already.

why does team chonindo no longer affect hunting when normal eco theory does.

long range infantry hitpoints increased xbwo 60% and skirms 20%. yeah lets spam vet bow with 60% hp as industrial germans.


nerfing cavalary scouts when its not even that strong of a card to begin with seems completely pointless.

lowering the inca limit makes no sense consider the major downsides to going nats is a small build limit.

nerfing rods doesnt make a whole lot of sense the unit wasnt even considered op by anyone the previous patch.

mass cavalry cost increased i dont get why its fine as it is.

mahout multiplier vs heavy inf being 1x seems like it would be broken in MUs with no or low amounts of goons. jap russia brit, and totally fucking useless vs skirms and goon civs, which is the exact opposite of what you want overall.

removing siege trooper tag from pumas seems risky af especially as youre not lowering their siege
Completely agree with everything Hazza says; although I’m not against the Puma change.

Native TP trickle should not be buffed. 0.6 was fine. I don’t want to be forced make Cree every single game on Hudson.

Inca don’t need a nerf, even with the trickle.

The mahout buff is pretty huge, and I’m pretty afraid of that one. I don’t see why it needs to be such a drastic buff. Just reduce the negative multiplier rather than reduce it altogether.

Russia changes just make no sense, IMO. Doesn’t solve any of the civs issues.
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2232
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by dansil92 »

I (in addition to my former statements) 100% agree with mitoe, though i do like the nat tp trickle, it would be unwise to 'force' it by making it so good
Image
Belgium stanleywinston
Dragoon
Beginner Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 275
Joined: Jun 29, 2015
ESO: Stanley_Winston
Location: Belgium

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

  • Quote

Post by stanleywinston »

And again, Germany has been given a totally useless buff that nobody asked for. The discussion that has been going on for about 1-2 months has been thrown out the window. Stop trying to buff other stuff to mask your mistake on nerfing uhlan hp. At some point, you will have to give in and actually do what 3/4 of high level players want, or at least put it in the beta?

P.S.: What Hazza said pretty much sums it all up.
User avatar
China Zeke
Dragoon
Posts: 206
Joined: Apr 30, 2018
ESO: XYH
Location: Turtle in base xD

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Zeke »

Hazza54321 wrote: why increase wh to the aztec shaman politicians when theyre good enough already.
I don't know if the current "Shaman" to age 2 is really good (1 wh travois and +10% att & hp), tho one more wh seems bit too much. Maybe remove the wh stats buff (only 2 wh travois) or do the one mentioned by @dansil92 (the current age-up with an additional war priest). And all other points make sense

btw the hitpoint of missionaries is still bit high (especially in colonial age), their hp should be halved (300 to 150) just like their cost. Maybe they could have an auto hp boost after age-up just like spies.
User avatar
European Union Scroogie
Lancer
Posts: 740
Joined: Dec 5, 2015
ESO: Scroogie
GameRanger ID: 10056919

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Scroogie »

What is caba for Spain?
Also agree that German can get their Uhlan HP back. If it proves too powerful, nerfing their shipment progression is the way to go, it's quite slow now as it should be, and in return Uhlans should be allowed to be decent. Germany isnt scary anyomoe since they barely have shipments.
Me being slightly ahead vs H2O: Image
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by WickedCossack »

Oh wow this patch, could comment on so many things but I'll just keep it to one ...
Mitoe wrote: The mahout buff is pretty huge, and I’m pretty afraid of that one. I don’t see why it needs to be such a drastic buff. Just reduce the negative multiplier rather than reduce it altogether.
The Mahout change overall seems to me to be a nerf? We have to remember it's base attack is 28 which is less than a cuirassier at 650 res. Making it do x1 dmg vs heavy infantry just brings it in line with every other heavy cav -> e.g you don't really want to fight heavy inf unless in small numbers. Then the one thing you do want to fight which is skirm units has taken a huge damage reduction, possibly the biggest damage reduction of any EP change ever?

I could agree the one MU it boosts vs is China but large groups of mahouts are not going to be rolling brit/jp musks now at 28 dmg!

But the change as hazza says makes it even more unviable vs civs like french/germany where already the only real use you could get was the 3 mahout shipment at certain times.

I would seriously reconsider this change.

Edit
: Ah wait - its overall 1.6 x vs heavy inf? Then yea that could be too strong, certainly it boosts in MUs where mahout is already viable and makes unviable in MU's where u dont build it. Should defo reconsider this. Haha this would actually steamroll China.
User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3286
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by fei123456 »

well, are sioux teepees too imbalance here? with a shipment it gives 24% eco bonus aura on current speed (so it benefits from market upgrades and eco shipments), while Karni Mata gives 10% only?

Also, a 50w teepee is 2.4 times stronger than asian wonder sounds ridiculous. We should put game balance upon everything.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable.
Buffing stuffs until they become viable is... bad? Unviable stuff is... good? :hmm:
I don't think I can agree on that.
That's because some stuffs are supposed to be viable in niche situations, not every game. Zoi Patch just feels like a different game.
Aoe3 isn't aoe2 where all the civs are the same. Buffing natives tends to make all the civs look the same.

Also it's just a huge design issue. I'm shocked people can't understand how wrong it is. If you want native TPs to become normal TPs, just remove native TPs and no TP maps from the game.

It really sucks because people are going to abuse that in EPL (some guys already do that), and the twitch chat will be hyped "wow 300 IQ strat", when someone goes for a native rush on no TP maps or goes ATP and takes native TPs, while it's just normal to do that with the native buffs.
Do you realize that when you go ATP, it is worth to take the native TPs even if you don't use them, just for the exp ? That's ridiculous.
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

– "Long-range Infantry Hitpoints" shipment increased to +60% Crossbowman and +20% Skirmisher hitpoints (both from +15%) — This buff will help late-game scaling, which seems desirable to team game balance, while making the shipment more unique.
We didn't see enough crossbowmen in late game team, for some reason, so let's just fucking give them +60% HP.
– Mahout Lancer “heavy infantry” multiplier increased to 1 (from 0.5); “infantry” multiplier decreased to 1.6 (from 2);
This feels like a pretty dangerous change. It effectively buffs mahout damage vs musketeers by +100%. Musketeers (in the case of British and Japan) used to be excellent at blocking mahouts, but now I don't know if they will be up to the task.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5488
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: Less Limited Post-Winter Balance Adjustments (EP8)

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:You randomly buff stuffs, and you keep buffing them until they become viable.
Buffing stuffs until they become viable is... bad? Unviable stuff is... good? :hmm:
I don't think I can agree on that.
That's because some stuffs are supposed to be viable in niche situations, not every game. Zoi Patch just feels like a different game.
Aoe3 isn't aoe2 where all the civs are the same. Buffing natives tends to make all the civs look the same.

Also it's just a huge design issue. I'm shocked people can't understand how wrong it is. If you want native TPs to become normal TPs, just remove native TPs and no TP maps from the game.

It really sucks because people are going to abuse that in EPL (some guys already do that), and the twitch chat will be hyped "wow 300 IQ strat", when someone goes for a native rush on no TP maps or goes ATP and takes native TPs, while it's just normal to do that with the native buffs.
Do you realize that when you go ATP, it is worth to take the native TPs even if you don't use them, just for the exp ? That's ridiculous.
I think you're wrong about nats. They are just horrible units. The xp isn't going to make it worth it to train the units.
WickedCossack wrote:Oh wow this patch, could comment on so many things but I'll just keep it to one ...
Mitoe wrote: The mahout buff is pretty huge, and I’m pretty afraid of that one. I don’t see why it needs to be such a drastic buff. Just reduce the negative multiplier rather than reduce it altogether.
The Mahout change overall seems to me to be a nerf? We have to remember it's base attack is 28 which is less than a cuirassier at 650 res. Making it do x1 dmg vs heavy infantry just brings it in line with every other heavy cav -> e.g you don't really want to fight heavy inf unless in small numbers. Then the one thing you do want to fight which is skirm units has taken a huge damage reduction, possibly the biggest damage reduction of any EP change ever?

I could agree the one MU it boosts vs is China but large groups of mahouts are not going to be rolling brit/jp musks now at 28 dmg!

But the change as hazza says makes it even more unviable vs civs like french/germany where already the only real use you could get was the 3 mahout shipment at certain times.

I would seriously reconsider this change.

Edit
: Ah wait - its overall 1.6 x vs heavy inf? Then yea that could be too strong, certainly it boosts in MUs where mahout is already viable and makes unviable in MU's where u dont build it. Should defo reconsider this. Haha this would actually steamroll China.
Yeah I just hate the mahout change all around. Just feels wrong.

Almost all of these changes feel out of place and like a step backwards to me, unfortunately.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV