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France Kaiserklein
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24 May 2020, 00:34

Yeah I agree with raphael here, pretty much the same as what I think about forts.

lordraphael wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:I agree buffing it isn't necessary though. But I think I explained ITT why forts aren't good atm in almost every case. I'm not sure what makes you think the opposite?

most likely not, but maybe it should unlock the ability to build one. if you lose a wagon or it gets sieged down at least you have somewhat of an compensation.

Yeah I mostly meant we don't need to add yet another change for that kind of card, there are plenty of non viable / very niche cards. But sure I wouldn't mind that kind of buff
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Playing Aztec is a 10% handicap

LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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France Kaiserklein
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24 May 2020, 00:41

RefluxSemantic wrote:Raphael, I think you might only be looking at somewhat early uses of the fort. Except for specific strats, the most general usage of a fort is to secure the last hunts and mines on the map near the end of the game. If you can do that, the fort is arguably the single most effective shipment at that point of the game.

But precisely if you're fighting for the last resources, you can't afford to send such a risky card... Even a colonial shipment, like 8 bows or whatever, would be better in that situation. Or 600g if you're out of gold. Anything but the fort at that point especially. Not to mention having one less actual fortress card could lose you the game before that point.

RefluxSemantic wrote:Its just a matter of getting the fort up and that is still pretty hard. There are scenarios where this would definitely seal the deal though. The problem might not even be the powerlevel, but that it is too niche; it only happens one in 20 games or so, and even then the situation where it is useful might not present itself. But when it does, the fort is game-winning.

There is no way it's good in 5% of games. Less than 1% for sure, and not because you're securing the last resources on the map.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Playing Aztec is a 10% handicap

LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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24 May 2020, 00:51

The fort gives you style points
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No Flag RefluxSemantic
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24 May 2020, 01:02

lordraphael wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Raphael, I think you might only be looking at somewhat early uses of the fort. Except for specific strats, the most general usage of a fort is to secure the last hunts and mines on the map near the end of the game. If you can do that, the fort is arguably the single most effective shipment at that point of the game.

Its just a matter of getting the fort up and that is still pretty hard. There are scenarios where this would definitely seal the deal though. The problem might not even be the powerlevel, but that it is too niche; it only happens one in 20 games or so, and even then the situation where it is useful might not present itself. But when it does, the fort is game-winning.

do i want to have a card taken in age 3 which could otherwise be a unit shipment or upgrade, just for the rare case that it comes down to having acces to the last natural ressources on the map ? Presuming it goes up in that spot where you want it to go up and not just get sniped down. Also that fort could be another unit shipment that help me control that spot anyways. Its a gamble and just not worth to have in your deck

I concluded you probably generally don't want to have the fort in your deck. But it's in the top 12 cards for my dutch decks and I often consider putting it in because it's slightly less niche than some other cards I have in my deck. If I could put 11 cards in fortress, I might just put the fort in my deck. It's niche and barely doesn't make the cut, but I'm pretty sure there is a situation of two where it's actually really good.
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United States of America charlemango
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24 May 2020, 01:08

RefluxSemantic wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:Raphael, I think you might only be looking at somewhat early uses of the fort. Except for specific strats, the most general usage of a fort is to secure the last hunts and mines on the map near the end of the game. If you can do that, the fort is arguably the single most effective shipment at that point of the game.

Its just a matter of getting the fort up and that is still pretty hard. There are scenarios where this would definitely seal the deal though. The problem might not even be the powerlevel, but that it is too niche; it only happens one in 20 games or so, and even then the situation where it is useful might not present itself. But when it does, the fort is game-winning.

do i want to have a card taken in age 3 which could otherwise be a unit shipment or upgrade, just for the rare case that it comes down to having acces to the last natural ressources on the map ? Presuming it goes up in that spot where you want it to go up and not just get sniped down. Also that fort could be another unit shipment that help me control that spot anyways. Its a gamble and just not worth to have in your deck

I concluded you probably generally don't want to have the fort in your deck. But it's in the top 12 cards for my dutch decks and I often consider putting it in because it's slightly less niche than some other cards I have in my deck. If I could put 11 cards in fortress, I might just put the fort in my deck. It's niche and barely doesn't make the cut, but I'm pretty sure there is a situation of two where it's actually really good.


Guys we need a special tournament with 50 card decks. Would unlock some pretty niche cards.
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24 May 2020, 02:07

I mean if Its not worth it as a card in the deck then I think atleast it would be more worth it as an age up option, either age 3 or 4 plus the rebuild thing.

also another thing is maybe change the resist on the wagon to range resist and not siege resist lol
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24 May 2020, 02:18

The siege resist stops it getting straight up killed by a two falc or 5 abus. Id prefer, honestly to have the wagon have 350-400 hp. Then if you like, deserve to lose the wagon you will but it wont just get poked by a dozen skirms. Adding build ability would be very interesting but its probably not a good idea for an ageup, just another flat out euro buff for no real reason. Engineer or Tycoon are just better anyways
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24 May 2020, 17:57

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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 May 2020, 18:02

I think it's a good example of why forts are bad. It's never going to go up in the middle of the map with constant poking, and getting more army to control the map is more important.
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Holy See Imperial Noob
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24 May 2020, 18:03

Who would construct forts if the hypothetical change were to take place? Vills, explorers, or the military?
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24 May 2020, 18:06

vills
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 May 2020, 18:28

vills ye, just like TCs.
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Norway iCourt
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24 May 2020, 19:38

[Armag] diarouga wrote:vills ye, just like TCs.


What? Lol... Euros can't build TC with vills...

Been playing too many expansion civs it seems. ^_^
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 May 2020, 19:39

iCourt wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:vills ye, just like TCs.


What? Lol... Euros can't build TC with vills...

Been playing too many expansion civs it seems. ^_^

I know, but they should.
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Norway iCourt
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24 May 2020, 19:44

Yes. Always seemed like a huge ES/RE oversight to me.

The expansion civs heroes are so much better. And not needed to build TC later.

Euro explorers suck till age 4/5. But you better keep that sucker alive if you plan on ever expanding your economy.

I was told not to add that feature due to civ uniqueness however.
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France Kaiserklein
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24 May 2020, 21:31

I'd argue vils shouldn't be able to build tcs as any civ. Or at least slower than currently, or have a cap of 4v building it. Being able to drop a tc in 15s with 8 vils is pretty stupid
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Playing Aztec is a 10% handicap

LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Latvia harcha
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24 May 2020, 21:38

@Kaiserklein i don't see anything wrong with that point in general but then you would need to make cheaper options for asian civs / native civs to buy back their explorers
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24 May 2020, 21:40

but really i think the best solution should be for all civs to be able to drop TCs with vils. it makes sense in aoe2 and it should make sense in aoe3
France Le Hussard sur le toit
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24 May 2020, 21:44

Yeah it's not like you'd see TC dropping everywhere anyway.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 May 2020, 21:50

Atm France and Otto are the only nilla civs to build TCs. When is the last time you saw Brit/Dutch/Russia/Germany/Spain build a TC in a 1v1 ? It's simply much better to train units because building a TC in the middle of the map is way too risky.
The 3 TAD civs however, build TCs every time they can, and I think it's a good thing, it makes the game less one-dimensional. The meta is boring because you have to take a fight to secure your resources tbh.
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Latvia harcha
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24 May 2020, 22:00

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Atm France and Otto are the only nilla civs to build TCs. When is the last time you saw Brit/Dutch/Russia/Germany/Spain build a TC in a 1v1 ? It's simply much better to train units because building a TC in the middle of the map is way too risky.
The 3 TAD civs however, build TCs every time they can, and I think it's a good thing, it makes the game less one-dimensional. The meta is boring because you have to take a fight to secure your resources tbh.

i've seen brit and spain build TCs in 1v1 but i guess this is also down to them being ahead and me being bad.... or just bad macro resulting in random TC
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France [Armag] diarouga
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24 May 2020, 22:01

Ye, when brit and Spain go TC that's because they're either super ahead or they fucked up their macro.
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France Kaiserklein
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24 May 2020, 22:02

harcha wrote:but really i think the best solution should be for all civs to be able to drop TCs with vils. it makes sense in aoe2 and it should make sense in aoe3

In aoe3 you can call mm or ship units in a tc. It's very tough to break it. And it's only 400w now on EP, after removing the 10 pop cost. Besides, on many aoe3 maps getting the control of the resources in 1 location can be absolutely huge.
A building time of 15s is very short. I think having to build it with your explorer is fair, it should be risky after all.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Playing Aztec is a 10% handicap

LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Latvia harcha
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24 May 2020, 22:05

Kaiserklein wrote:
harcha wrote:but really i think the best solution should be for all civs to be able to drop TCs with vils. it makes sense in aoe2 and it should make sense in aoe3

In aoe3 you can call mm or ship units in a tc. It's very tough to break it. And it's only 400w now on EP, after removing the 10 pop cost. Besides, on many aoe3 maps getting the control of the resources in 1 location can be absolutely huge.
A building time of 15s is very short. I think having to build it with your explorer is fair, it should be risky after all.

it should be risky but it shouldn't be like if you use 1 unit you cannot make it anymore.
i think limiting to like 4 vils is reasonable as i agree that they do go up too fast. the risk of losing 4v and a foundation is also considerable after all.
what you say about shipment points and map control, however, does also apply to outposts and even more so warhuts
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Canada dansil92
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24 May 2020, 22:55

Yes euros can't build a tc with vills but they can Summon their explorer at full health, instantaneously. Seems pretty fair to me. Reviving a monk is legitimately never going to happen using the tc. You idle and its stupidly expensive and slow. Firepit takes a firepit and lots of vill seconds. Aztec is the exception with wp but those certainly aren't free and their war chief is like, legitimately, essential to their composition
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