EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Discussions for the last iteration of EP.

Should we TEST fixed crates?

Yes
52
73%
No
19
27%
 
Total votes: 71

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Canada Mitoe
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EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Mitoe »

So this is a controversial topic that has been approached a few times throughout the course of EP's history. In the team we are pretty interested in testing fixed crates, as it seems like it may make solving some of the balance issues much easier.

We understand this a large change to the way AoE3 has always worked, and this is very open to being reverted, but we would like to at least test it and see how things go.


How we intend to do this is to give ALL CIVS the food + wood crate start, as this seems to be the most strategically interesting for most civs and is usually the most fun as well. They could, of course, be tweaked along the way if another crate start seems more desirable. There is also some talk of giving Germany the Food + Coin start and giving them another small buff to compensate.
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France chronique
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by chronique »

This thread is the most beautiful thread i have never ever read in my aoe3 life!!! If tp is nerf, do you think there will be balance issue with 200w as german?
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

If you are going to do such a big change, it should be the only change in the patch, so you can correctly assess the needed balance changes all else being equal.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by giveuanxiety »

I always liked having to know what to do with the different crate starts as it adds more strategy and knowledge you need to acquire. But with that said going into DE fixed crates is prob the smartest choice. Just image a DE tour with a $5,000 prize pool and in the finals the game is german vs russia. The crate start is 100 wood and the german player says he wants a re on map cause he doesnt like his gold mine spot. They re and now it is now 200 wood start. That specific MU just feels completely different depending which crate start it is. It evens effects the civ selection phase too.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by helln00 »

I wanted to float this idea for a while but I think if we go fixed crates then it might be a good idea to follow 3 principles for the starting resources.

- Enough to queue 1-2 vils(or in the case of russia, one batch)
- Enough for 1 house to prevent pop cap
- the rest on other resources.

It will need to be adjusted since some civs have different vil conditions like otto, dutch and india but I think that maybe restricting the very early game a bit may allow for a bit more level playing field regardless of maps
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:This thread is the most beautiful thread i have never ever read in my aoe3 life!!! If tp is nerf, do you think there will be balance issue with 200w as german?
The good thing is that we'll know Germany will get 200w every game, which means we can just nerf Germany then.
The issue in the previous patches was that we couldn't nerf Germany too hard because it would become bad on food and coin starts then.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by chronique »

[Armag] diarouga wrote: The good thing is that we'll know Germany will get 200w every game, which means we can just nerf Germany then.
The issue in the previous patches was that we couldn't nerf Germany too hard because it would become bad on food and coin starts then.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Qosashvili93 »

Yes yes and yes
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Peachrocks »

Absolutely. There is no real adjustment of strategy based on random crates as I’ve heard argued. You either get excess resources that can’t be used optimally or it lets you do something that you normally can’t and this changes based on civ and is not symmetrical meaning luck can dictate who gets a significant advantage. This seems very out of place in a game like aoe3.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by aligator92 »

In the interest of balance it is the right choice.
But in the interest of enjoyment it is the wrong choice as it is one of the core elements of age 1 to me. So I voted No. I do however understand why it is important to top level players.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by aligator92 »

helln00 wrote:I wanted to float this idea for a while but I think if we go fixed crates then it might be a good idea to follow 3 principles for the starting resources.

- Enough to queue 1-2 vils(or in the case of russia, one batch)
- Enough for 1 house to prevent pop cap
- the rest on other resources.

It will need to be adjusted since some civs have different vil conditions like otto, dutch and india but I think that maybe restricting the very early game a bit may allow for a bit more level playing field regardless of maps
You might have a misconception. They will not give every civ the same crates. Each civ will get its unique set of crates which will be the same every game.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by EAGLEMUT »

aligator92 wrote:In the interest of balance it is the right choice.
But in the interest of enjoyment it is the wrong choice as it is one of the core elements of age 1 to me. So I voted No. I do however understand why it is important to top level players.
I think the group of players who are able to enjoy it is very small. Most top-level players don't like it because it's imbalanced, most low-level players don't understand the mechanic or even know that it exists.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by helln00 »

aligator92 wrote:
helln00 wrote:I wanted to float this idea for a while but I think if we go fixed crates then it might be a good idea to follow 3 principles for the starting resources.

- Enough to queue 1-2 vils(or in the case of russia, one batch)
- Enough for 1 house to prevent pop cap
- the rest on other resources.

It will need to be adjusted since some civs have different vil conditions like otto, dutch and india but I think that maybe restricting the very early game a bit may allow for a bit more level playing field regardless of maps
You might have a misconception. They will not give every civ the same crates. Each civ will get its unique set of crates which will be the same every game.
No I understand that the crate config will be different for every civ, but im saying that the config should roughly fit those principles, ie a sort of bare minimum to start. For the most part this will be similar for most civs
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Sargsyan »

fixed crates would be so good
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by kevinitalien »

I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Fixed crates doesn't affect the BO though. You can do the same BOs with 100f/100w starts.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by Sargsyan »

aligator92 wrote:In the interest of balance it is the right choice.
But in the interest of enjoyment it is the wrong choice as it is one of the core elements of age 1 to me. So I voted No. I do however understand why it is important to top level players.
random crates with some age 1 treasures affect the game so much its just stupid.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by kevinitalien »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Fixed crates doesn't affect the BO though.
one of the best example is the jap, jap start wood and no start wood it's completely different, same as tp civ, tbh i don't like the idea, but ofc in terms of balance is great
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by aligator92 »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
aligator92 wrote:In the interest of balance it is the right choice.
But in the interest of enjoyment it is the wrong choice as it is one of the core elements of age 1 to me. So I voted No. I do however understand why it is important to top level players.
I think the group of players who are able to enjoy it is very small. Most top-level players don't like it because it's imbalanced, most low-level players don't understand the mechanic or even know that it exists.
I would expect every 2nd lt to know what crate starts exist and have at least a rough idea of what the implications are and at the same time they probably don't matter below lt. col. Given that hardly anyone below 2nd lt plays EP, there should be a lot of EP players potentially favouring random crates.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

kevinitalien wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Fixed crates doesn't affect the BO though.
one of the best example is the jap, jap sart wood and no start wood it's completely different, same as tp civ, tbh i don't like the idea, but ofc in terms of balence is great
In the current meta, 200w start is you build a shrine and send 2v/3boats unless it's a greedy MU (like Dutch, mirror, Port), and with 300w you can go port consulate, double shrine or TP+shrine (and then send 2v or go 300w/kami), so it adds options with Japan if anything.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by chronique »

kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Its much ez to balance the game and make it more diverse with fixed crate. With randam crate its more or less a fake diversity because you are force into one bo depending of your lucky start.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

aligator92 wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
aligator92 wrote:In the interest of balance it is the right choice.
But in the interest of enjoyment it is the wrong choice as it is one of the core elements of age 1 to me. So I voted No. I do however understand why it is important to top level players.
I think the group of players who are able to enjoy it is very small. Most top-level players don't like it because it's imbalanced, most low-level players don't understand the mechanic or even know that it exists.
I would expect every 2nd lt to know what crate starts exist and have at least a rough idea of what the implications are and at the same time they probably don't matter below lt. col. Given that hardly anyone below 2nd lt plays EP, there should be a lot of EP players potentially favouring random crates.
It's not just about EP, that's the kind of change that could be added to DE.
And this poll shows that there aren't that many players favouring random crates.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Its much ez to balance the game and make it more diverse with fixed crate. With randam crate its more or less a fake diversity because you are force into one bo depending of your lucky start.
Yes, exactly, it's a fake diversity. With France for instance, you have to go market on coin start, 13cdb age up on food start, and the only start which gives you different option is the 200w start because you can either 12/10 or 14v age up with a TP.

It's the same with Spain, you can go piroshiki (in theory because noone does that in practice), age 1 TP, age 1 market, or just keep the crate. Germany is actually the only civ which is forced into a start with 200w crates, but then it gives more option for your build in age 2.
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by kevinitalien »

chronique wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:I'm afraid that with the fixed crates we always see the same bo and that it becomes a little boring in the end
Its much ez to balance the game and make it more diverse with fixed crate. With randam crate its more or less a fake diversity because you are force into one bo depending of your lucky start.
from my point of view it will not be more diverse but quite the opposite, we will see too often the same build as for example with jap ger etc, china had crates fix and we saw at all games ff, I do not know I maybe wrong so I hope
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Re: EP9: Testing Fixed Crates

Post by WickedCossack »

What are you testing for?

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