HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

  • Quote

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Lets talk walling. Walls are not really used in 1v1 and even team games things are happening so fast most of what I am talking will not apply. Treaty games have very small bases so there is not much variety there. But there are helpful hints on how to build walls, advantages of each type, and most importantly is how to beat them. FFA is different in that most games are played on large maps, you generally have time and space to build more intricate bases. And you may have to defend from multiple attacks from the same or multiple players. Some of this advise could be good for Treaty players.

Keep in mind there is a good balance to having too many or too few walls. Too few and simple box raids or being attacked while out of position gives you no time to react. Too many and it becomes very costly, hurts unit pathing and takes up space where barracks could be placed for better defense output of unit. There is no perfect number it can be about what civs your neighbors are and skill level. If you are aggressive enough you may not even need walls at all. Poorer players will try to over compensate with more walls. Most skillful players have 1-4 layers and maybe another 1-2 around factories and then will wall off large chunks of claimed land.

Lets begin.

Wall Stratedgies

1---Normal walls... quick easy to build no gaps, just build layers to protect what you want. Still the best overall for simplicity, and strength as there will be no gaps on edges next to cliffs, and the post make besieging big gaps harder.

2.---Deleting segments.... faster to build and cheaper but requires careful placement for no gaps and down side is that when a wall is damaged it hits the 2 adjacent walls too so bigger gaps can be made with the same siege effort. Another advantage is you can gate the whole wall and have nothing to block unit. Begin by placing walls as close to object as possible, and instead of stretching them out once it makes that half segment, squeeze your wall back into itself. Otherwise you could leave a gap at the edge or in between segments, only build about 2-3 segments at a time, and squeeze the wall into its smallest length before it goes to a half segment.
To delete pillars, click on one and use your select all button (usually Q) then delete.... make sure you are not deleting the segments! do this before they are built to save the wood cost)

3.--- small segments I have seen some players make walls by only making small segments just like they would with a long wall of gate pieces. This helps make besieging more difficult but is costlier takes more APM time and gives less options on where to place gates. Do it by making very small shift clicks of 1/2 wall segments as tight as possible. It will take a lot of damage to make a big hole, but for an experienced player they will know how to make a gap pretty quickly. I explain how below.

4.---Building your base in small compartments like a checkerboard (lattice)...... costlier and hurts unit pathing but very difficult to destroy a base like this. gives a lot of defensive advantages that protects pockets of bases and once an enemy is within is still surrounded by stuff, and vills can easily escape and gather in safe spots. Also requires more APM time to execute and wood to buy many gates to get units through it efficiently.

5.--- Segments only--- game breaking and broken and has several disadvantages to the player, see reply post below for example. However single segments can be used to give map awareness or block areas someone might put a FB. Its pretty lame. You can place the segments for cheap LOS in areas to know when your enemy is coming, or spread out every few tiles to make placing a FB impossible. This really bugs out the units as even in a battle they will start randomly attacking wall segments, so if you up against this, make sure to keep an eye on units dying to pointless wall siege.

6.--- Ghost walls. If you make a line of walls and have not built them yet, you can upgrade the wall at the cost of a gate and the gate will form, but it will have 000 HP. Why would you do that? No need for it, but its interesting because you could make a wall on a part of a map you have scouted but cant get to and then make a imaginary wall... I actually have not tried that in a game. I consider it a game bug and lame to try to use in any way, but in case you see it that's what people have done.

7.--- Super secret wall strat. Hint its a secret

8.--- Walling around your opponent. Good way to start a war and choke them out for a bit, but harder to maintain and repair walls

9.--- Wall spacing. If going with concentric type bases it is important not to make your layers too close. If they are are then splash damage from cannons can actually take out multiple layers at once. So either space them out just enough or even give them a larger gap so that you can fit in barracks and stables between the layers when/ if a battle occurs in that spot.

10. Sioux/Lakota walls. In DE Lakota now get walls..... very nice... might make them really OP for FFA, but in RE they do not. There are 2 basic strats for Sioux. Either spread out on the map to all the natural resource locations making it hard to raid anything substantially and use teepees to defend key strategic buildings like the fire pit, or wall with markets and corrals. It is more expensive, but having dozens of corrals next to each other forming a chain. It makes it so you can pump out an army instantly and very hard to take down. You can have some small gaps as entrances and teepees inside your base to make incoming raids worthless to the enemy.

Big base or small base?

1. Big base--- can give lots of room for barracks but can also be harder to defend with multiple attacks at different places. easier for vils to switch locations where to farm or mill from. For civs like india, and otto that need big FB its better to sprawl out. It also traps and makes a lot of trees safe to chop, but sometimes vils chop those trees and make holes for people to run through you didn't have before.

2. small base--- (really good for aztek, japan, dutch, sioux, spain) easier to defend and get units to other locations. less room for barracks and if you start to lose your base you pretty much have to exit it. For example with aztec, I have my TC and firepit surrounded by houses, then my economy surrounds that, and a perimiter of my 7 of each war huts and noble huts, then concentric walls around that. its a small base but I can basically use all my warhuts to defend from, and aztecs fast units can get where they need to be.

3. Multiple bases--- Sometimes it is good to break up your economy and build the bulk of it in in a separate area, such as maps like deccan and G plains. Making your original city some buildings but claiming areas like behind the river or in the open resource rich area to build your 2 TC's after going to age 3. Advantages are people may not know which is the more important one, and if you lose that base still have something to fall back on and then take the battle to their base.

4. No base--- basically for pros and sioux on large maps. Rush your opponents and stay on natural resources by using theirs to kill the next opponent. Spread everything out so it is difficult for your enemy to find and raid, they won't have a set target and will spend a lot of time searching while you are picking apart theirs. Disadvantages are once spies are located its over for you. Even regular spy units can be a problem, but as long as you keep the pressure on them it can be a good trade to lose 20 vils while they lose their base.

5.Arena--- once your main economy is protected wall off larger sections of land for resources but let your enemy get through it but have barracks at all corners for perfect flanking so that they are in a choke point from the gap they made in the wall thinking they are getting in, but really you are using the walls to control the battle within your arena to drain them.

Pro tips to destroying walls

So walls are part of the game and can be very annoying to deal with, here is some counters to walls.

1.... if you have a wall nearly destroyed and the one next to it is full HP, use an infantry to siege it before the main segment goes down and it will drop that wall to the lowest HP of the surrounding walls. If you do this carefully you can make very large gaps in walls without that much siege effort. I tend to spread all my units out across the wall, and then use my siege to hit one main area, once that part goes down, the rest follow like dominoes. This is really good to learn as you do not want to force units through a choke hold and if multiple layers are there it can easily be repaired and be a costly mistake to try to rush in too fast.

2.... use cannon/ mortars to hit walls behind, and units to hit walls up front. this goes well with the above tip to deplete the walls to near death and then use your units spread out on the wall to do the last damage making a big hole, but beginning to soften up the back layers so when your units get to it, the shared damage is put to use.

3..... do not task units to siege a wall directly, instead use control keys to move the unit to the area just under the wall and then siege wall, that way the units do not spend so much time forming a line and more density of units attacking it. Basically, if you target a wall your units will form a line at max range and block other units from getting close, so, task them right up to the walls so when they start there are multiple layers of units. Some units have no range for seige and can get pretty bugy if they have no room to move, so be aware if you have macemen, or elephants and make a hole for them.

4.... target the post and not the large segments. This is because if you are going for a focalized attack, such as a box, you will take out 2 segments and a post instead of 2 post and a segment which makes a bigger gap for follow ups.

5. Maintain vigilance on units so they are attacking what you want and not random wall segments.

6. If the player is good and re-walls then when you have the chance after making a gap use a vill to make walls perpendicular to theirs and wall off the opening itself. basically, make a wall to block them off from making a repair, and boxing it in if your up against a really good defender.

7. If the player is rebuilding or building more fortifications in your battle area use your cannons to hit the building in progress (this goes for towers and barracks as well) your siege power is doubled and most things go down with 1 shot. This helps you keep your advantage with more efficiency than trying to maintain destroying the wall you were already targeting.


Other FFA guides by Howlingwolfpaw:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21014 Civ overview

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=21010 FFA map review

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=21035 General strategy tips

Thats it for now, maybe will think of things to add later, have a GG!
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Bad walling example, please do not do this

It breaks the game, and bug units and does not even help the player doing it.

I won vs this and only had 2 walls to my economy

Lesson here. He still lost because he spent forever in age 3-4 building these spending thousands on wall segments and APM time. I was dutch vs germans. and out boomed him considerably even though we were both in age 5 to fight. He was not able to stop my slow... advancement. This strat also did not help him because he had no way out of his base to really kill my units and my mortars were out of range of his culvs, letting me use my culvs vs his. And his cavalry could not get to my grenadiers. He tried a few times to flank my base and failed many times until finally after losing all his vills went in for like 100 dopps to my factories and got them. He then accused me of cheating because I was scouting all over the map to find where he was running to. 1. I sent units every where 2. I saw the direction his units were going 3. I play enough to know where people run to (empty base?) 4. I had most of the other players walls scouted so I know where he would not be.

To some players this could be hard to handle. Tips, take it slow with a defensive position for your siege. rely on lots of artillery and some protective units. Watch base for flanking attacks. Make a hole big enough to get through resist trying to squeeze through a tiny narrow opening and be patient for a big one. Unless there is a chance to walk an army through like he was out of position. Wall segments like these kind of bug units making it hard for them to find paths and in an attack will start randomly besieging them when under fire. So keep track of army and micro your ranged units to theirs.

Remember players who play like this do so to over compensate on skills and the good fighter boomer can win vs this.
Attachments
screen30.jpg
screen30.jpg (390.99 KiB) Viewed 5769 times
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1605
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

  • Quote

Post by Squamiger »

I am a fan of distributing your base and walling up different parts in seemingly random ways. It can be pretty befuddling if someone tries to raid you-- if you give the impression of a plain, circular base but actually have your mills/plantations/factories walled up in strange places and lots of random walls internally, it can be quite difficult to get to you. If you have the time, a lattice of internal walls crisscrossing your base with strategic gates is superior to a thick shell of 4-5 walls in a big dumb circle with everything exposed inside.
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Squamiger wrote:I am a fan of distributing your base and walling up different parts in seemingly random ways. It can be pretty befuddling if someone tries to raid you-- if you give the impression of a plain, circular base but actually have your mills/plantations/factories walled up in strange places and lots of random walls internally, it can be quite difficult to get to you. If you have the time, a lattice of internal walls crisscrossing your base with strategic gates is superior to a thick shell of 4-5 walls in a big dumb circle with everything exposed inside.

yes the compartment/ lattice is very tricky to overtake. Once you realize it is a lattice base best advise is to go slow and only siege with mortars. hitting pillars where they intersect so that holes open up that cav can get through for the likely skrim protection.
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1605
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by Squamiger »

only problem is that making your base more intricate and latticey is more APM and more time that you could spend on booming and massing
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Squamiger wrote:only problem is that making your base more intricate and latticey is more APM and more time that you could spend on booming and massing
good point, I added in that it also takes a lot more APM time. Sometimes in FFA people have it, other times none at all and walls become very erratically placed.

I used to build way more OP bases but lately try to keep them simple as a challenge to myself to defend with minimal walls to show it can be done (unless my neighbor is like Russia, Japan, or Aztek) . But sometimes I do lose to base trades or simply because I am out of place and can't train an army fast enough and end up in a feeding cycle trying to defend. Other times people think they can rush in and end up in a trap where I have them in my arena.
User avatar
India TNT333
Lancer
Posts: 527
Joined: Sep 13, 2018
ESO: TNT333

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by TNT333 »

Best civs for FFA?
"We are kings or pawns" Napoleon Bonaparte
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1605
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by Squamiger »

howlingwolfpaw wrote: Other times people think they can rush in and end up in a trap where I have them in my arena.
this can be really effective. Since FFA maps are so clustered and random and disorganized, you can often draw people into fights where you have a favorable choke point, and you can trade obscenely well if you do it right. I remember playing vs. Russia as China and I was relatively low on resources, but I managed to fight with arquebusiers against a musk/strelet fort forward base spam in a choke full of walls and buildings for long enough that I was able to pull ahead, since I outranged both his units and could get more shots in over time.
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1605
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by Squamiger »

TNT333 wrote:Best civs for FFA?
Tier 1: Portugal and Spain. Ports are most dominant, just no real question about it. Long range goons and long range mortars are just the most flexible units, and best suited for raiding, defending raids, and running across the map when alliances shift. If you let Ports get full eco and boom for a while they are really hard to defend against. Spain, played well, is really strong with unction, carded rods, and carded lancers

Tier 2: China, Russia, France, Aztec, Japan. Strong civs, unique bonuses, specific weaknesses to each. China has insane eco but slow train times, Russia's eco isn't great and they don't have super long range units but they do have opris and the really annoying musket fort strat, French has good eco and strong skirms and artillery but cuirs are weaker when fighting among tons of walls and barracks, Aztecs have insane units and decent eco but they can take a while to get rolling and they are hard to manage and micro in late game, imo. You need to ship 1000g and constantly make jaguars from the warchief and manage the firepit, which I find hard. I don't play Japan enough to know specifics but I tend to see them a lot in games, I think they have strong units and a strong eco and daimyo laming. Not sure how I would rank these civs among themselves.

Tier 3: Brits, Dutch, Germans, Iroquois, India. I've seen em all do well but that probably comes down to the player and not the civ. You can definitely pull off a win with any civ in FFA if you get lucky or play in an unorthodox way.

Tier 4 / Suck Tier: Ottomans (just too slow to boom in FFA before they get crushed) and Sioux (can be fun to make dog soldier boxes, but you just can't win without walls if people are playing seriously). That said I have beat Spain with Ottomans when I was given a long time to boom, since Ottos have amazing cav and artillery, and I have had a ton of fun running around as Sioux and crushing enemy armies. With a 25 vill firepit, teepees, and an army of dog soldiers and wakina, you pretty much can't lose against any army, you just can't defend well without walls.
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

TNT333 wrote:Best civs for FFA?
I think I will make a whole new post about this later for each civs advantages and disadvantages. Some of it is even map specific, and what cards are essential no matter if you are going for a rush, turtle, or boomy build order.
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

maybe some newer players will find wall information interesting so I am refreshing this page!
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
ESOC Media Team
Donator 01
Posts: 8161
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Cool thread, added to the strategy wall.
User avatar
France ǝɯɐuɹǝsn
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Joined: Jul 9, 2020

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by ǝɯɐuɹǝsn »

how can you place portugal and spain before france and russia ?

it's maybe true if it's a 8 players ffa on lrg siberia, when the only skill required is wall spam, but on a 5 players ffa portugal and spain are just weak, and if you play it correctly, brit is the strongest civ for a 5 player ffa, followed by france
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

ǝɯɐuɹǝsn wrote:how can you place portugal and spain before france and russia ?

it's maybe true if it's a 8 players ffa on lrg siberia, when the only skill required is wall spam, but on a 5 players ffa portugal and spain are just weak, and if you play it correctly, brit is the strongest civ for a 5 player ffa, followed by france

Are you talking about my civ over view post? if so... then I have France at Top tier OP level, for RE I wouldn't even let them in, for DE I they have a chance.

Then Port and Russia are on the same top tier. Both very good civs for FFA but still have some weaknesses that do not make them lame OP. (though borderline lame is Opri-box and 50 range mortars)


. I haven't really played enough of DE to determine how that is going, and still expect many changes to balance so would allow even the Swedes.
User avatar
France ǝɯɐuɹǝsn
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Joined: Jul 9, 2020

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by ǝɯɐuɹǝsn »

@howlingwolfpaw no I answer to @Squamiger who place port and spain in first place

and i don't talk about DE, this is the legacy aoe 3 part
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

ǝɯɐuɹǝsn wrote:@howlingwolfpaw no I answer to @Squamiger who place port and spain in first place

and i don't talk about DE, this is the legacy aoe 3 part

yeah sorry I just realized that after I reread a lot of the conversations.

I do think spain is under rated, it was the first civ I learned and really started to win FFAs with, as with unction could make for some quick kills and didn't seem to get bogged down in fights, their weakness is being slow to siege relying on cannons and a slow advancement, and only wanting to fight in 1 spot. but if they can control the fight in picking a spot and proceed with a cannon death ball out match most civs.


I also think Ottos are under rated as well, once you get used to a slow train time and learn how to fight with it, there are some things you can do with otto that just can't be done with other civs. I love their late game potential.
User avatar
France ǝɯɐuɹǝsn
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Joined: Jul 9, 2020

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by ǝɯɐuɹǝsn »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:
ǝɯɐuɹǝsn wrote:@howlingwolfpaw no I answer to @Squamiger who place port and spain in first place

and i don't talk about DE, this is the legacy aoe 3 part

yeah sorry I just realized that after I reread a lot of the conversations.

I do think spain is under rated, it was the first civ I learned and really started to win FFAs with, as with unction could make for some quick kills and didn't seem to get bogged down in fights, their weakness is being slow to siege relying on cannons and a slow advancement, and only wanting to fight in 1 spot. but if they can control the fight in picking a spot and proceed with a cannon death ball out match most civs.


I also think Ottos are under rated as well, once you get used to a slow train time and learn how to fight with it, there are some things you can do with otto that just can't be done with other civs. I love their late game potential.
well you can win with every civ I would say, but it's easier to wins with some, it's what i mean, I've won some ffa with sioux, some with otto by just going fi, full spahis + lot of canon, it's possible, yes but it's harder
User avatar
No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Jaeger
Posts: 3475
Joined: Oct 4, 2015

Re: HowlingWolfPaw's Wall stratedgies for FFA (all modes apply)

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

ǝɯɐuɹǝsn wrote:
howlingwolfpaw wrote:
ǝɯɐuɹǝsn wrote:@howlingwolfpaw no I answer to @Squamiger who place port and spain in first place

and i don't talk about DE, this is the legacy aoe 3 part

yeah sorry I just realized that after I reread a lot of the conversations.

I do think spain is under rated, it was the first civ I learned and really started to win FFAs with, as with unction could make for some quick kills and didn't seem to get bogged down in fights, their weakness is being slow to siege relying on cannons and a slow advancement, and only wanting to fight in 1 spot. but if they can control the fight in picking a spot and proceed with a cannon death ball out match most civs.


I also think Ottos are under rated as well, once you get used to a slow train time and learn how to fight with it, there are some things you can do with otto that just can't be done with other civs. I love their late game potential.
well you can win with every civ I would say, but it's easier to wins with some, it's what i mean, I've won some ffa with sioux, some with otto by just going fi, full spahis + lot of canon, it's possible, yes but it's harder
absolutely, You just to to play each civ the way its meant to be played to its strengths, and play the map to its advantages.

Sioux for example, have a powerful rush style, that can take out 1-2 players from the get go. Its ruthless. Then you can use fertility dance to boom up as fast a Euro civ. Then scatter all over the map not needing houses or build a base made out of market and corral walls. (might need to add this to my list) and use teepees to get incredible kill ratios.

They are feared and loathed in FFA, when you see them in a game, its good to spend a little on a age 1 wall

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV