Spanish Logistics - A (simple) Strat

[Derrien]

Spanish Logistics

Introduction:

This strategy focuses on something the Spanish typically aren't known for; early and continously fuelled colonial aggression with the option to go up to fortress (in theory) and benefit even more. The cornerstones of this strategy are the spanish Logistican politican and TPs. While the strat is not really new and Aussie_Drongo has already shown what it is able to do there has come another change in the recent patch. The ressources (200f, 100x, 100c) which were previously shipped in crates are now immediatly deposited into your stocks along with the original 300f/w/c.
The change has greatly diminished the necessary micro of the strategy and is now incredibly easy to operate. No villagers have to be tasked to gather from crates (which frees up villagerseconds) and you are able to directly spend the ressources which only need half the time than the normal crates for shipping. The crux of the whole matter is, that you need to build at least two TPs and to constantly push and fight to gain additional XP. In a way yiou imagine the troops as villagers who "rob" the enemy of ressources around one or two corners.

Build-order:

This is really not that difficult.
First Age:
1. Always produce villagers
2. After gathering your crates -> build a TP as soon as possible and send 6 villagers to wood and gather enough for a house.
3. Ship 3 villagers as soon as possible
4. Save your second shipment for transition

Transition:
5. Chop enough wood for a house and a Marketplace maybe also Hunting Dogs and Steel Traps
6. Ship 300 wood around 60 seconds after aging-up to immediatly receive the additional 400 ressources upon aging

Second Age:
7. Shift your villagers onto food and coin 5/4 to 1 for optimal gathering (villager/musketeer production)
8. With the 400 wood from the second shipment you throw down two barracks -> upon completion you que Musketeers
9. From here on out you ship the infinte 300 wood shipment for as long as you need infrastructure (additional TP, a church and maybe arsenal)
-> after you can transiton to sending the infinte 300 food for optimal Musketeer/Rodlero production. The 300 wood shipments can also pay for ten crossbows, if needed.

From here on out the strategy is adjustable. Keep in mind that your 'economy' depends on you seeking engagements and trading units. It can also 'happen' that you pool enough ressources to have an immediate age-up to fortress for spanish gold (300f/w/c + 200f, 100w, 100c + 400c = 1100 ressources total) or cannons. There is also the possibilty to ship unction to give you that little extra 'oumph'. The coin shipment is also a good option to seed into your shipment list as it is a fast way to age and is more valuable then food shipments.

Why play this?
You play the Spanish without going to fortress which might already be enough for some people. This is also a strategy that can rival a british player in unit-output in mid-colonial and also can haul in as much or more ressources. You are also consistently on the aggression which will make it difficult to be raided, while a great bunch of ressources are also un-raidable.

People will not really expect you to stay in colonial and might already account for an easy win, because you might obviously be a bad player and they underestimate you. Playing a Fast-Fortress might still be the better play, but that simply is not somethign I like to do. Take this all with a grain of salt after all I am still a low ELO pleb at 12xx. What I can say is that this works against players of equal skill.



Tips and tricks:

1. XP treasures in the early stages will help you a lot as will an 80-100 food treasure to mitigate the additional 100 food you have to pay for the Logistican.
2. Build the barracks with two villagers each and maybe even on the defense, if you think the opponent might or go for a normal opening (afterall you age-up is a bit delayed).
3. A church is a great building. The XP trickle is good and the unique tech might be worth it at times. You can also build additional missionaries, if you shipped unction.
4. If you play against this strategy try to apply early pressure and try to destroy houses. Adequatly counter his units to not lose units to fuel his xp driven economy.

I hope this helps at least someone a bit. Criticism is always welcome.


Edit history: Adjusted the build to the early TP start.

[KnArLoC]

I have a couple suggestions. You should chop 100 w in age 1 and build a tp immediately and then a house, and during transition get market and hunting dogs and a house. In your recorded game, you aged at 3:15 with no tp, and I just went into custom game and was able to age at the same time (3:15) but with a TP in age I (and I purposefully did not gather any resource treasures to speed this up).

Do not send 300w while still in age I. Save that shipment for the transition, you are kinda wasting the logistican bonus on this first 300 w shipment for no real gain. In fact, you delayed yourself in making barracks because this shipment wont arrive until you are 15 secs into colonial already and you need this wood for the barracks. If you get a tp in age 1 immediately instead of waiting until 300 w, you get about the same exp since your two TPs are late. You can make a second TP, steel traps, and more houses with a second 300 w shipment immediately after the first arrives (which is only 20 seconds since the logistican speeds up shipment time).

After this I like the idea of sending another 300 w for a third tp or a church if there are no more TPs left to take (more exp) and placer mines and 2 more houses. You can even try stagecoach instead since you have several TPs and a large army to protect the line. After that, 300 gold (try to send 300 g instead of 300f, the shipment is much more efficient than 300f, especially since you have steel traps researched).

I tried this in a 2v2 skirmish game to test and I was able to get 2 rax up shortly after 5 mins with 4 FULL batches of 10 musk out by 7:30, stagecoach with 2 TPs around 6:30, and start aging up to fort around 8:45.

[Derrien]

Oh I definitly have to test that then! I was kinda put up about chopping the 100 wood and feared that it might set me back even more, but if what you tell holds true, the early TP will definitly be the way to go.
It seems like I have to test around a bit more then actualize the guide already.

Something I am a bit on the fence about is sending too many of the gold crates. The ressource distribution you receive from the 300f crate is near ideal to spam musketeers and hold up the villager production. Maybe it could be possible to put nearly all vills on food and go completly coin or simply switch in a coin between food shipments.

Would you think, that this strat can be competetive or are we sacrificing something big in turn for this?

[KnArLoC]

Well I think there is no other civ that can get four full batches of 10 musk from 2 barracks (and you probably can go even more than 4 full batches if you're fighting and you keep sending shipments), so there is definitely a niche there (although your barracks will be up late compared to brit for example). I'm not an expert in 1v1 but for 2v2 maybe it's a solid plan to have spain do this and brit go cav for example and do a colonial push at 7:30 ish with 40 musk and 15-20 huss. Also this strat doesn't work on a no TP map like pampas sierras so make sure to have a backup plan if this happens.

[Derrien]

I tried this in a 2v2 skirmish game to test and I was able to get 2 rax up shortly after 5 mins with 4 FULL batches of 10 musk, stagecoach with 2 TPs around 6:30, and start aging up to fort around 8:45.

I just tried this in a custom game and while I was a slight bit behind you (3:30 click-up) I do not really get how you were able to have 40 Musketeers produced by 6:30. That is something that I was only able to get to at 8:10 and that could be shaved down to 7:30 (if I were like 500 ELO higher) and I produced them back to back with no down-time in my barracks. But I was definitly able to reproduce the fortress timing you did.

[KnArLoC]

I tried this in a 2v2 skirmish game to test and I was able to get 2 rax up shortly after 5 mins with 4 FULL batches of 10 musk, stagecoach with 2 TPs around 6:30, and start aging up to fort around 8:45.

I just tried this in a custom game and while I was a slight bit behind you (3:30 click-up) I do not really get how you were able to have 40 Musketeers produced by 6:30. That is something that I was only able to get to at 8:10 and that could be shaved down to 7:30 (if I were like 500 ELO higher) and I produced them back to back with no down-time in my barracks. But I was definitly able to reproduce the fortress timing you did.

Hey, sorry if my writing was unclear I just meant that I could have [4 full batches of 10 musk] which is notable since I'm not aware of any other strategy that can constantly train 10 musk from 2 barracks for 4 full batches; the clause [stagecoach with 2 TP around 6:30] is independent of that. Ofc, when starting musk production at 5:20 since musk take 30 seconds to produce you can have 4 full batches by 7:20-7:30 ish. I've just edited my post, hope that clears it up.

[Derrien]

I tried this in a 2v2 skirmish game to test and I was able to get 2 rax up shortly after 5 mins with 4 FULL batches of 10 musk, stagecoach with 2 TPs around 6:30, and start aging up to fort around 8:45.

I just tried this in a custom game and while I was a slight bit behind you (3:30 click-up) I do not really get how you were able to have 40 Musketeers produced by 6:30. That is something that I was only able to get to at 8:10 and that could be shaved down to 7:30 (if I were like 500 ELO higher) and I produced them back to back with no down-time in my barracks. But I was definitly able to reproduce the fortress timing you did.

Hey, sorry if my writing was unclear I just meant that I could have [4 full batches of 10 musk] which is notable since I'm not aware of any other strategy that can constantly train 10 musk from 2 barracks for 4 full batches; the clause [stagecoach with 2 TP around 6:30] is independent of that. Ofc, when starting musk production at 5:20 since musk take 30 seconds to produce you can have 4 full batches by 7:20-7:30 ish. I've just edited my post, hope that clears it up.

Nah, no problem man! I just used this strat in its updated form against a British player in a casual match and he was like 150 ELO above me and I simply rolled over him. I had like double the units the moment I got into his base and the only thing that slowed me down were the outposts you get on Texas. Aside from that I simply pulled head and shoulders above him. I also think that a mix of 25 musk and 15 Rodelero is a viable thing to to; he practically had to keep his vills in base while cav speed infantry ran cicles around his settlement.

[draztik]

Need more test , all that looks a bit slow even if some things looks very interesting . (especially sending the 300 wood witch transform themself on 700 ressources when you pass age II)

Of course it depends about what is the plan. On 2vs2 it is surely good. On 1vs1, you ofen need to have around 15-18 mousk and 8 piq at 6:20 to make a serious treath. But maybe your buuild can be interesting for a later timing...

If you up at 16 vill , it is also better to build tp at the begining and chop 100 wood.

[Derrien]

Need more test , all that looks a bit slow even if some things looks very interesting . (especially sending the 300 wood witch transform themself on 700 ressources when you pass age II)

Of course it depends about what is the plan. On 2vs2 it is surely good. On 1vs1, you ofen need to have around 15-18 mousk and 8 piq at 6:20 to make a serious treath. But maybe your buuild can be interesting for a later timing...

If you up at 16 vill , it is also better to build tp at the begining and chop 100 wood.

Yeah. The problem with this strat is the extra 100 food you need to gather with the logistican which delays the age up. The TP at the beginning is actually something I already incorporated into the guide just an hour ago, because someone else already suggested it.

[draztik]

I think your build can be interesting against some age 2 play or semi FF.. Worth to try in spain mirror also.(but maybe a bit slow because spain age fast)

What is interesting with your build is that you can add a stable and build more house more conveniently.

If the adversary make a straight fast FF, it looks a too slow Imo

[Gummy13]

Did you tried it with a 12/10 age up?
Makes your logistician crates faster, your 2 barracks faster. And you will stil be able to produce 3/4 dubble musk batches.

[Derrien]

I did not, but the idea of it is intriguing. As it is many of our ressources are not gathered by villagers anyways and this might cut down the time of our first engagement significantly. Will definitly try it out later today.

[draztik]

I tried but the fact that you have to up at 900 food make 12/10 quite slow and not very interesting Imo, (unless you have sheeps/cows/ food treasures maybe) .

[Derrien]

I tried this against the AI and was able to click up at 2:30 and reach colonial at 4:00. At 5 minutes I had 10 muskets on the field and the second TP build during transition. From there on this build feels kinda.. 'spotty'? Maybe it was just my inability to properly micro, but I was unable to pop out complete batches of muskets after that and only reached 36 at 6:50, which is not all that great, if you consider, that you can have a better economy and reliable unit production with the same numbers at 7:30.

But maybe these 40 seconds earlier is all that matters? I will test this again soon. I would also like to note that I had decent success with this strat in the ranked ladder at around ~1200 ELO. It definitly catches people off guard as it can pump out enough units to break most rushes and can go over the unit count of Brits early and mid-colonial. If enough damage is done you will also dominate in late colonial. At this point barely anybody expects it, while it can be easily scouted by taking a simple look at the spanish deck.

Note: My 12/10 test was done with no food treasures, so there can definitly be some seconds of shaving to be done.


Edit:
With food treasures and slightly better micro this game I was able to get in a 3:50 colonial time with 10 muskets ready at 5:05 and 20 at 5:30 after that appears a time of inconsistencies where you cannot keep up full batches of musketeers for around a minute while also producing viallagers and going for stage-coach. Overall the ability to keep TC and two baracks working at the same time is inconsistent. BUT you get 20 Muskets at 5:30 and close to 40 at 6:50. At that makr you also have stagecoach.

[draztik]

2:30 is not so bad . I think you don't need to build a second TP. better to build 2 houses instead. (especially if you 12/10)

I would only produce 4 villagers at age 2 (for a total of 16) and go all in .... unless your build allow to have very high ressources.

And yes, 40 secondes ca makes a huge difference depending what your are looking for. If f your goal is to destroy the TC of an opponent who is fasting FF without a lot of defences, it will surely makes a HUGE difference. If your opponent prefer to semi FF, you don't need to attack so early and in this case I would say that it would no make a huge difference. IMHO

[Derrien]

If you need to kill an FF or if you know that a rush will come, I would definitly emphasize the need to go for an 12/10 with this built. If you know that continued colonial play might be ahead the 16 villager age-up seems to be the more enticing way to go as you can keep up an economy and also build up for a potential fortress play. You might even be able to go toe to toe with some FF's (at least lower ELO) with the 16vill age up as you can have a large mass in his base right before he can click up to fortress or in transition.

[Derrien]

Here a sample game of a 12/10 with normal conditions on a TP map. Noteable I think is, that even while you go 12/10 you are able to go for both Hunting Dogs and Steel Traps while also being able to upgrade the traderoute to stage coach with minimal effort. The second TP imo is a good thing to have as it will give your push a bit of longevitiy, though it could be argued that the 200 wood you need to gath could be traded in for other ressources to smoothen out the first 30 musketeers.

Edit: Sadly the replay does not seem to load.

[draztik]

from my experience, when you 12/10, you have to find the limit where investing 100 ressources into economy ruin your rush or your ff. Making 30 musketeers in a smoother way is far more important than the rest when you are in 12/10 mod.
Even with a single tp, you should be able to send card back to back I think.

I don't know if it is very interesting to make a market with only 12-16 vill also.

[Derrien]

My largest successes at the moment on the ladder are with the 16vill age up at the moment, but that might just be me that it flows better for me. I also had some really rewarding games were I send unction after having build 30-40 Musketeers. As we already have a church most of the time I found it really easy to build an additional 4-7 missonaries to buff the attack of my Musketeers as they are fairly average and without any upgrades.

In the following there are two games both with Unction, but one without access to a trade route.

[SP] 492450963[US] vs Ragehardt[SP] - Pampas Sierras.age3yrec

This is a game WITHOUT a trade route where I still went with the Logistican. Might not have worked as well vs. another civ.

(3.31 MiB) Downloaded 125 times

Pampas Sierras

Rules: Supremacy (1v1)

Version: Definitive Edition 12.23511

492450963

(AGENT) Ragehardt

[SP] Ragehardt[SP] vs enot_____[DU] - Saguenay.age3yrec

A game versus a dutch player. Don't know how much it tells of the viability, as the opponent did not seem to be prepared.

(3.44 MiB) Downloaded 157 times

Saguenay

Rules: Supremacy (1v1)

Version: Definitive Edition 12.23511

(AGENT) Ragehardt

enot_____

[Jets]

I can't wait to try this, I love that more civs are able to perform a better age2 than before, but I'm concerned that the only way the devs managed to do this is by creating a new politician that changes all.

[draztik]

You should build your barrack forward (at least near your tp)Imo unless you expect a very early big rush perfectly executed.

To make a market with spain (and researhing hunting dogs and steel trap) need a lot more attention and apm than you think : you can lose age I because of this market : bad micro against ennemy explorer, no extra dogs to protect your explorer/tower/tp, or to prevent the enemy to build a forward base., I wonder how much spain players lose games because of this stupid market. Also, the benefits of the market are low with spain because ennemies love to raid spain and spain are bad at preventing raids.

With spain, you should be the king of age I and get the map control thanks to dogs. A russian should not even be able to build his forward base, maybe also Azzy but it is more difficult.

You want to rush and also make a ton of TP (upgrading road) and also unction.... why not, maybe it is relatively correct with 16/20 but it looks quite greedy for me. With spain, You can't have your cake and eat it, you ofen need to make a choice. At least, unction so early is surely very bad. I would also forget unction before to be in the top 50.

[KnArLoC]

If you go with 12/10 don't make a market + HD, a TP is better. If you go for 16 vill version then market is definitely worth it because you will have the majority of your vills on food, while sending infinite wood and coin shipments as needed. In this case I think HD + Steel Traps is invaluable with 20 vills on food in mid-colonial.

[Jets]

What about 2TPs and no market?

[draztik]

made some test with spanish logistician on 12/10, I can have 28 mousket at 6:20 witch is quite good. But I have to stay in "all in mod" if I want to keep musketer production corrcectly. Another "small" problem is that a decent opponent can be fully aware that you are rushing considering that you don't have the tower.

[abyss_wind]

Why not consider using crossbowmen?