Learning the French

Austria MMFD
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Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

Hey guys, I usually play at 1400 ELO, with my main Haude it is a bit higher, but I now started with France. And of course i won 2 out of 15 games that I played. I feel like I can't get a hang of the civ, although I virtually know alle the cards and units by heart. I don't know how to properly wood rush, I don't jnow how to properly do a semi cav ff, and I am not getting started on Kaiser making an FI seem viable. I am all out of Ideas and have no good france players close to me who are willing to help. I would be greatful for literally anything that can help me withthis civ. Thank you guys in advance!

Worst Matchups for me:

Aztec
Inca
Haude

If you need more Info, just let me know.
I usually play a cav semi ff where I go for steel traps and only 30 pop, so I get 4 huss and wait for wood to get more infrastructure without going idle on vills. but it still feels rather slow. I also woodrush from time to time, making sure I gather enough wood, to build a barracks without using the age up wood. Its first minutes are fuelled by the two wood shipments, 4 cdb comes after that for eco. And I also use an infantry semi ff.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by callentournies »

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Post by Guigs »

MMFD wrote:
27 Apr 2022, 01:05
I usually play a cav semi ff where I go for steel traps and only 30 pop, so I get 4 huss and wait for wood to get more infrastructure without going idle on vills. but it still feels rather slow. I also woodrush from time to time, making sure I gather enough wood, to build a barracks without using the age up wood. Its first minutes are fuelled by the two wood shipments, 4 cdb comes after that for eco. And I also use an infantry semi ff.
These build orders seem suboptimal. As Callen said post some recs :)
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Re: Learning the French

Post by kaister »

Menu -> resign -> yes is best french strat @bwinner @Diarouga @fattsrussellfan4 @Guigs
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Re: Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

@Guigs @callentournies Will do today or tomorrow.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Best part about France is the fact that they're a jack of all trades, with their CDBs facilitating any strat you wanna go for. Cav semi-FF is one option, alternatively you can try the Pike Xbow rush which is pisseasy to macro and quite efficient if you know what you're doing.

In essence, rather than focusing on one strat as France, look to know several strats at a decent level, so you can then adapt as needed. Asian civs in particular tend to do poorly vs Pike Xbow since they're slower to age and reliant on Wonders, for example.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by chris1089 »

If you get your basic 3 build orders down to 10 seconds from
pro time (I only got to this point when I was touching 1700 elo) and your follow up isn't completely rubbish you'll instantly win loads of games.
When you play France, in most matchups what you do is a lot more about playing against your opponent's strengths/ weaknesses than playing to yours, so you have to know how to change your build orders to get to a higher level.
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Re: Learning the French

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Post by Kaiserklein »

You most likely need to work on your age 1 tbh. France with just a TP and a 14 cdbs age up is not the same civ as France with a quick 12/10, a quick 13 up, or a 14 up with market + TP. But the age 1 macro can be pretty tricky, and you need to know the maps (so you can guess which treasures you'll find) and use your explo + scout properly.

Other than that, I'd say focus on a few strats, and honestly forget about the classic cav semi for the most part. It just doesn't seem to do well in most MUs, and it also won't really make you improve at France, because it's a bland build which doesn't really use most of the civ's potential. I guess it's a good build if you need to work on your mechanics but that's about it.
You seem to watch tourney games, so I guess try and watch carefully how it's done and reproduce it. But yeah I won't lie, playing France well is hard
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Re: Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

@ShinkuroYukinari From my point of view, I agree with you. That is why I find the civ to be so rewarding. A win makes you work for it, you can't just rush all in like I did with haude, you have to shape your gameplay. But at the same time, when I win with France and it was a fairly matched game, it is mostly because I counterplayed well. The scout often helps me with that. The pike Xbow rush is something that i have often tried, but never really gotten a decent BO down. I try to get enough wood for a immediate barracks in age 2, so I get a better start. I put two cdb forward to do that more safely and quicker. If I wanna siege and catch a barracks or a stable, I go pike first, otherwise xbow. But I don't really know when to got double racks, when to add a second one and so on. Therefore I barely land on my feet with that strat, even with good ageups.

@chris1089 I mostly played Semi Cav, with 4 huss and then age. Kaiser already pointed out the flaws in that approach. The other strats are 10-15 musks in age 2 in order to defend against Lakota, and have mass to puh with cannons behind in age 3. And the above mentioned wood rush, which I find to be rather hard to execute well enough. I always felt like I need several strats for all of my civs, I just don't like the idea of just playing one strat that wins you your games all the time.

@Kaiserklein absolutely agree. I watched a lot of your france gameplay in the last weeks, didn't even know you could get a good enough age 1 to have a market with HD as well as a tp and a house. I am still learning how do use the scout properly, but it always feels like a super valuable asset, as the intel has saved me many games. Thanks for the comment on the cav semi, it always felt a bit underwhelming to be honest, but I was rather fixiated on France as a cav civ. And yeah, the tourney games often help. I saw the infantry semi ff (musks with 5 + xbow shipment in age 2) from Hazza, and I also recently saw it from you in a stream. And I have no problem with it being hard to be honest. But for the last week or so, I just felt like I can't make meaningful improvements, if that makes sense.

A big thank you to all the answers so far by the way, this is my first post and I really appreciate the feedback a lot guys!
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Re: Learning the French

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

MMFD wrote:
27 Apr 2022, 12:17
@ShinkuroYukinari From my point of view, I agree with you. That is why I find the civ to be so rewarding. A win makes you work for it, you can't just rush all in like I did with haude, you have to shape your gameplay. But at the same time, when I win with France and it was a fairly matched game, it is mostly because I counterplayed well. The scout often helps me with that. The pike Xbow rush is something that i have often tried, but never really gotten a decent BO down. I try to get enough wood for a immediate barracks in age 2, so I get a better start. I put two cdb forward to do that more safely and quicker. If I wanna siege and catch a barracks or a stable, I go pike first, otherwise xbow. But I don't really know when to got double racks, when to add a second one and so on. Therefore I barely land on my feet with that strat, even with good ageups.
France is afterall meant to be a civ where overall game knowledge shines.

IMO if your Age1 is well you can ship 3CDB -> 700w to get going from double rax as soon as theyre up, with CDBs mostly on food initially. with good positioning of CDB you can rapidly switch the ones in base to the shipped 400w crates so your forward vils can build the double rax, then pressure. You can afford 20 units from those double rax before you need to switch up your production to more wood, possibly even 40 if you get enough xp to ship 600w next. Goodspeed has a simple guide on it at the strategy wall, and it keeps up well even today.
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Re: Learning the French

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Post by callentournies »

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Re: Learning the French

Post by chris1089 »

MMFD wrote:
27 Apr 2022, 12:17
@ShinkuroYukinari From my point of view, I agree with you. That is why I find the civ to be so rewarding. A win makes you work for it, you can't just rush all in like I did with haude, you have to shape your gameplay. But at the same time, when I win with France and it was a fairly matched game, it is mostly because I counterplayed well. The scout often helps me with that. The pike Xbow rush is something that i have often tried, but never really gotten a decent BO down. I try to get enough wood for a immediate barracks in age 2, so I get a better start. I put two cdb forward to do that more safely and quicker. If I wanna siege and catch a barracks or a stable, I go pike first, otherwise xbow. But I don't really know when to got double racks, when to add a second one and so on. Therefore I barely land on my feet with that strat, even with good ageups.

@chris1089 I mostly played Semi Cav, with 4 huss and then age. Kaiser already pointed out the flaws in that approach. The other strats are 10-15 musks in age 2 in order to defend against Lakota, and have mass to puh with cannons behind in age 3. And the above mentioned wood rush, which I find to be rather hard to execute well enough. I always felt like I need several strats for all of my civs, I just don't like the idea of just playing one strat that wins you your games all the time.

@Kaiserklein absolutely agree. I watched a lot of your france gameplay in the last weeks, didn't even know you could get a good enough age 1 to have a market with HD as well as a tp and a house. I am still learning how do use the scout properly, but it always feels like a super valuable asset, as the intel has saved me many games. Thanks for the comment on the cav semi, it always felt a bit underwhelming to be honest, but I was rather fixiated on France as a cav civ. And yeah, the tourney games often help. I saw the infantry semi ff (musks with 5 + xbow shipment in age 2) from Hazza, and I also recently saw it from you in a stream. And I have no problem with it being hard to be honest. But for the last week or so, I just felt like I can't make meaningful improvements, if that makes sense.

A big thank you to all the answers so far by the way, this is my first post and I really appreciate the feedback a lot guys!
The build order won't win you loads of games at 1600 elo - then you'll start to need to learn to do other stuff, but you are limited by how good your macro is in your ability to win games. I don't think what I said contradicted what Kaiser said, he's just pointing to a specific area of build order.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

@chris1089 I didn't mean that Kaiser contradicts you, sorry for the misunderstanding. I just wanted to lay out my main go to strats, and Kaiser pointed out that the semi cav is not really a strong option. that is what I was referring to.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by callentournies »

I think we’re getting off topic here
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Re: Learning the French

Post by Mitoe »

To be fair, I think of the 3 matchups you said you have trouble with, I actually think Aztec might be unwinnable based on the practice games I've had vs them.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by fei123456 »

It depends on Aztec build. If he's trying to do a naked 10WP boom, defending with only a war chief and 6 warriors, your colonial pressure will idle him a lot. Even if he managed to reach age 3, French has a good skirm goon combo that can deal with eagle knights.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

Mitoe wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 04:26
To be fair, I think of the 3 matchups you said you have trouble with, I actually think Aztec might be unwinnable based on the practice games I've had vs them.
I think one of the biggest problems about aztec for me as a french, at least in early colonial, is the cav, as their smaller unit size allows for better pathing. They will almost aways find a way through to my vills, or xbows or whatever valuable target they have in sight.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by MMFD »

fei123456 wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 06:29
It depends on Aztec build. If he's trying to do a naked 10WP boom, defending with only a war chief and 6 warriors, your colonial pressure will idle him a lot. Even if he managed to reach age 3, French has a good skirm goon combo that can deal with eagle knights.
And about the warrior priest boom, so you would suggest just applying early pressure, more focused on idling that actually destroying bildings and going age 3 myself, is that correct? If the other guy plays with fencing school, he pops a warrion in under 2 seconds, I feel like its very hard to even cost efficently idle there. Or is the lost xp from aztec not doing the gift ceremony worth it?
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Re: Learning the French

Post by fei123456 »

MMFD wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 11:06
And about the warrior priest boom, so you would suggest just applying early pressure, more focused on idling that actually destroying bildings and going age 3 myself, is that correct? If the other guy plays with fencing school, he pops a warrion in under 2 seconds, I feel like its very hard to even cost efficently idle there. Or is the lost xp from aztec not doing the gift ceremony worth it?
Free warriors are annoying indeed, but it has a maximum limit of 6. When you outmass him a lot, warrior isn't a huge problem. You just focus on his villagers and priests, kill them or idle them, ignoring the warchief and warriors. He can't dance for warriors and priests and XP at the same time.
Hussar and crossbow may be the better combo.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe wrote:
28 Apr 2022, 04:26
To be fair, I think of the 3 matchups you said you have trouble with, I actually think Aztec might be unwinnable based on the practice games I've had vs them.
Also Iro definitely beats France, and Inca is just busted
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Re: Learning the French

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Post by pérez »

Azzy new meta sucks couse they don’t stop buffing the lame aspect of them, and now u just play with the fire pit mechanics more than macro micro and early pressure which was what azzy was supposed to be played, they just buffed the lame aspect and nerf the initial civ design. Just again the devs fking up civs with nonstop never asked changes. EP azzy was much funnier and required more skill than this lame fest spamming warriors, eagles and reviving wc nonstop. Btw melee explorers shouldn’t have cover mode as it was in EP.
Just sucks being forced to play super lame way to win couse they wanted to do random nerfs to what the civ was supposed to be played as a fast civ so most ppl just play the super buffed lame aspect of the civ. In EP azzy vs france was a close MU, maybe a little bit france favoured but at least close funny and winnable from both sides depending on skill lvl of the players.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by Garja »

I agree on the tendency on just buffing the unique/abusable features of each civ rather than making changes that allow for more sutble adaptation to the meta. However I don't think the AK+war chief meta is that strong. Surely annoying to play against if you let Aztecs get away with it.
Aztec standard rush is kinda gone because at high level was already holdable since EP. Aztec eco/semi FF strat are still viable, probably more so than before, but they are overshadowed but how easy to execute and annoying for the opponent are the firepit strats.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by ShinkuroYukinari »

Great French strat thread :)
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Re: Learning the French

Post by Garja »

I would not suggest to pressure Aztecs in age2 when they're WP booming. Just do greedy FF/semi FF.
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Re: Learning the French

Post by Squamiger »

Garja wrote:
29 Apr 2022, 13:26
I would not suggest to pressure Aztecs in age2 when they're WP booming. Just do greedy FF/semi FF.
Garja himself is a warrior priest, of course he would say this

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