User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7383
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

19 Oct 2018, 00:12

Well you already can't fit all of them atm. You'd probably just keep inf combat and inf attack then, but it's good enough.
No one ever goes industrial to ship skirm combat as ports. It's not even a card you want to have in your deck usually. If you go industrial, you already have at least 4 good cards to ship before that one.
Yeah, dunno if balance would be better then. I just think it would be a better design. But we can just tweak around the cassa stats/cost and find a good balance probably.
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1278
ESO: gamevideo113

19 Oct 2018, 07:12

To be fair even in age4 the inf combat card is not that great, you have a ton of better cards to ship like 5 organs, heavy cannons, genitours, maybe 8 goons or 6goons+6cassa... Probably even 1600 wood could be a better investment that allows you to get the guard upgrade for a couple of your units. The fact that it upgrades musks too is not that relevant imo because who's ever gonna spend 2000 res to upgrade and use musks in age4 when you could have dragoons with 18 range? Most of the times i wouldn't even put the card in the deck.
I'd be fine with removing the vill discount as long as ports get a cassa buff/price tweak and maybe an extra food crate or something to make their start a bit more easy.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019

Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 409

19 Oct 2018, 08:18

The age 4 upgrade cards are significantly weaker than having them in age II/III. Since they are based on base stats, their net effect is less than 10% improvement on guard lvl.

E.g.:
Without card: 150 hp * ( 1 + 0.2 (vet) + 0.4 (guard) ) = 240 hp
With card: 150 hp * ( 1 + 0.2 (vet) + 0.4 (guard) + 0.15 (card)) = 262.5 hp
Net effect: ( 262.5 hp - 240 hp ) / 240 hp = 0.09375 = 9.375%

This net effect becomes weaker for every upgrade you already did before (e.g. advanced arsenal).
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794

19 Oct 2018, 09:37

Moving inf card from IV to III will just make another carbon copy of Dutch. I wouldn't do it, there are other ways to further improve Ports without standardizing.
This way Ports remain unique, but on the other hand, having only one good unit in their whole army roster limits options. You can win with goons only in age IV with all upgrades and cards.....
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7383
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

19 Oct 2018, 11:07

Goons and huss are both good, and cassadores are a bit weak but not horrible. Can't really say ports have only one good unit. And it's not because ports would have inf combat in age 3 that they'd be like dutch lol, then you can say the same thing about iro.
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794

19 Oct 2018, 11:22

Kaiserklein wrote:Goons and huss are both good, and cassadores are a bit weak but not horrible. Can't really say ports have only one good unit. And it's not because ports would have inf combat in age 3 that they'd be like dutch lol, then you can say the same thing about iro.


They have best goons in the game, hussars and cassas are average at best. You can't even remotely compare them with Brit huss or French and Dutch skirms. Organs are also on the weak side. It really comes down to one excellent unit they have, which you can effectively use in III or swarm opponent in IV, which rarely happens.
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 741
ESO: HUMMAN

19 Oct 2018, 11:26

Port compansates it with greater eco. Port boom is food heavy, their church card has food upp, and cassadors are food heavy skirms unlike regular skirms. I am saying this as a civ design, port may be weak or something.
Image
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794

19 Oct 2018, 11:33

Even with better eco which derives from vill price reduction, I constantly feel the need for turtling to age IV when playing Ports, or doing full water and even better, semi water which is now possible with new ep version. I feel they can't cope well with strongest age III civs in the game. They miss a lot of things to be above average....
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7665
ESO: Garja

19 Oct 2018, 11:56

gamevideo113 wrote:To be fair even in age4 the inf combat card is not that great, you have a ton of better cards to ship like 5 organs, heavy cannons, genitours, maybe 8 goons or 6goons+6cassa... Probably even 1600 wood could be a better investment that allows you to get the guard upgrade for a couple of your units. The fact that it upgrades musks too is not that relevant imo because who's ever gonna spend 2000 res to upgrade and use musks in age4 when you could have dragoons with 18 range? Most of the times i wouldn't even put the card in the deck.
I'd be fine with removing the vill discount as long as ports get a cassa buff/price tweak and maybe an extra food crate or something to make their start a bit more easy.

Unit cards are not great on EP, unless it is a planned FI vs an aggressive civ.
Even two heavy cannons is a card to skip if it was a boomy game.
And musketeers become useful again in age4 because it is often about just raiding opponent eco and musks have better stats per pop than dragoons. Also some civs have easier time countering goons than musks (e.g spain).
Kaiserklein wrote:Goons and huss are both good, and cassadores are a bit weak but not horrible. Can't really say ports have only one good unit. And it's not because ports would have inf combat in age 3 that they'd be like dutch lol, then you can say the same thing about iro.

They would be another skirm-goon civ in age3 even more than what they are now. At least now you have to trade skirms until you have saved enough res to go IV or add organs. With infantry combat they would have up for all 3 main units which makes them military better than even French in age3.
Great Britain Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 6091

19 Oct 2018, 12:00

I would never skip 2hcs from deck, its literally the best unit in the game
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7665
ESO: Garja

19 Oct 2018, 12:15

Not from deck maybe but if you're in age IV after long battles in III you are not sending 2 hcs. They make no difference at that point.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Dragoon
EWTEPL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 343

19 Oct 2018, 12:24

Garja wrote:Not from deck maybe but if you're in age IV after long battles in III you are not sending 2 hcs. They make no difference at that point.


it's almost as if we play 2 different games xD
Germany lordraphael
Jaeger
EWTNWC LAN SilverDonator 01
Posts: 2310

19 Oct 2018, 12:32

Hazza54321 wrote:I would never skip 2hcs from deck, its literally the best unit in the game

ye 2 heavies almost always pay off
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
User avatar
Finland somppukunkku
Jaeger
Donator 02
Posts: 2582

19 Oct 2018, 12:33

5 rabaulds are better than 2 heavies? (atleast with the IV up which is cheap)
Co-Founder of Somali Kabuli Gaming
Homo management SKG
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7665
ESO: Garja

19 Oct 2018, 12:38

At that point shipments are expensive as fuck so you want to send more important stuff like factories. And if you sent factories already it means you are almost maxed out. If you are almost maxed out and you didn't the game yet it means the opponent is also almost maxed out. If both maxed out then 2 hcs make no difference and it's a wasted card. You want ups not units there.
User avatar
Finland somppukunkku
Jaeger
Donator 02
Posts: 2582

19 Oct 2018, 12:41

I think ports usually wanna go IV before maxed out cause so many good cards and free tc. But I have 5 rabaulds on my deck instead of 2HC cause it's worth 2k res. Idk if it's better.
Co-Founder of Somali Kabuli Gaming
Homo management SKG
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7383
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

19 Oct 2018, 12:53

Atomiswave wrote:They have best goons in the game, hussars and cassas are average at best. You can't even remotely compare them with Brit huss or French and Dutch skirms. Organs are also on the weak side. It really comes down to one excellent unit they have, which you can effectively use in III or swarm opponent in IV, which rarely happens.

Who cares. No one stacks enough upgrades on their huss in 1v1, in 99% of cases, to make this even remotely relevant. If you're fortress, you're just gonna ship cav combat at some point and that's it, basically. And cav combat has the same impact on every single huss in the game.
Skirm combat is a cool card that you'd ship sometimes too, but most civs don't have access to that, so it's not really relevant. But yeah, like I said, cassadores are a bit weak.
Organs are actually better than falcs at killing infantry, they just suck at artillery wars basically, but if you're going in an artillery war you're anyway gonna make culvs. Only problem is that the shipment of 2 organ guns is underwhelming and that it loses hard to the 2 falc shipment, but that doesn't mean the unit is weak.
Goons are slightly better than regular cav combat goons, if you even come to the point where you ship that card. It really doesn't come down to one unit, but to a 2 or 3-unit composition, just like for basically every fortress civ.

Atomiswave wrote:Even with better eco which derives from vill price reduction, I constantly feel the need for turtling to age IV when playing Ports, or doing full water and even better, semi water which is now possible with new ep version. I feel they can't cope well with strongest age III civs in the game. They miss a lot of things to be above average....

Ports are definitely not weak on EP. If anything they're above average.

Garja wrote:They would be another skirm-goon civ in age3 even more than what they are now. At least now you have to trade skirms until you have saved enough res to go IV or add organs. With infantry combat they would have up for all 3 main units which makes them military better than even French in age3.

Dutch, russia and china also have ups for their 3 main units, for the record. Even arguably india and jap. And as ports you don't have to trade skirms until age 4 or organs atm, you just have to survive long enough while keeping a bit of mapcontrol to outmass and win, even with regular fortress units.
Either way, the point was that ports don't need an even easier boom with cheaper vils. They do need a buff on RE, but it should probably be on cassadores. Maybe moving skirm combat to fortress is the wrong way to do it, since the buff needs to affect the early game, and not late game. So probably just tweaking cassadores stats/cost instead.
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 7754

19 Oct 2018, 13:05

Is this just a civ discussion rather than a "how we should change the civ" discussion?
Anyone here think they need changed?
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7383
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

19 Oct 2018, 13:24

Yeah I'd rather have another change (for example the cassadore cost/stats tweak we mentioned) than 85f vils, both for balance and design purposes. On high hunt maps (and there's quite a few of them on ep), the port turtle/cm/walls/whatever lame feels too strong tbh, and imo having cheaper vils helps a lot for that kind of playstyle, while having better cassadores would help mostly for regular early fortress port stuff.
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1278
ESO: gamevideo113

19 Oct 2018, 14:00

What about giving organ guns +2 range and maybe nerfing some multiplier to avoid making the unit too op?
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019

Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

19 Oct 2018, 14:51

please no... at most give it a bit more speed.
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7383
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

19 Oct 2018, 14:57

They're more mobile than falcs already. If we change that kind of stuff, I'd say let them shoot faster (less time between each shot). But again, organs are not weak anyway, they're just strong vs infantry and weak vs artillery/buildings. It's just how the unit is designed, and I don't think it should be changed.
sirmusket: https://imgur.com/phZoCw6
sirmusket: compare that to ur piece of shit face/height
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
EPL Reigning Champs
Posts: 7754

19 Oct 2018, 15:00

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah I'd rather have another change (for example the cassadore cost/stats tweak we mentioned) than 85f vils, both for balance and design purposes. On high hunt maps (and there's quite a few of them on ep), the port turtle/cm/walls/whatever lame feels too strong tbh, and imo having cheaper vils helps a lot for that kind of playstyle, while having better cassadores would help mostly for regular early fortress port stuff.
What I like about the vill cost change is that it's a general buff, not one aimed at a specific build order. Replacing it with buffs to Port's fortress play will encourage strategies that are already prevalent with them and hurt diversity.

I do prefer nilla cassadores, that unit was way more fun and interesting than the current "just another skirm" cassadores. But as a replacement of the vill cost change, that change alone won't balance Port. I think you can go for it regardless though.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

19 Oct 2018, 15:03

Kaiserklein wrote:They're more mobile than falcs already. If we change that kind of stuff, I'd say let them shoot faster (less time between each shot). But again, organs are not weak anyway, they're just strong vs infantry and weak vs artillery/buildings. It's just how the unit is designed, and I don't think it should be changed.


afaik they have the same speed.
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 741
ESO: HUMMAN

19 Oct 2018, 15:11

Maybe organs faster pack unpack
Image

Forum Info

Return to “ESOC Civilizations Discussion”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests