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Norway iCourt
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Location: Monterey, California

23 Aug 2019, 02:27

gamevideo113 wrote:@EAGLEMUT Would it be possible to change the industrial age shipment "500 of each resources" from 15 friggin 100 res crates to 3x500 res crates? The clumping under the tc is real whenever i send that mess :cry: :salt: :salt:


This is a good easy quality of life change in my opinion.
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United States of America Darwin_
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25 Aug 2019, 14:44

Has the idea of removing/replacing/nerfing the eagle eye ability been floated around? Granted the azzy and Sioux explorers have other special abilities to differentiate them from Euro explorers (cover mode and speed, respectively) but isnt the eagle eye ability just a little much, especially considering the iro war chief is already incredibly strong and important to iro’s strength as a civ?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Great Britain ListlessSalmon
Skirmisher
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25 Aug 2019, 15:36

Darwin_ wrote:Has the idea of removing/replacing/nerfing the eagle eye ability been floated around? Granted the azzy and Sioux explorers have other special abilities to differentiate them from Euro explorers (cover mode and speed, respectively) but isnt the eagle eye ability just a little much, especially considering the iro war chief is already incredibly strong and important to iro’s strength as a civ?


I feel like nerfing the WC might not be the best way to go about nerfing iro. Obviously the dude is insane, but you can nerf other things to make iro weaker, and the WC being crazy means keeping him alive (and using firepit to bring him back) is very important so there's that level of ability, also with his spell being so strong using it well is important.

That being said I guess from a design point of view maybe making him less important wouldn't be so bad as "I have a bunch of shit and my WC, you're fucked! Unless my WC dies, and then I'm fucked!" is maybe a slightly silly binary way for things to be.

In any event for nerfing them I would have thought just doing musket riders 20% RR and entirely revert the mixed crates change would be a good thing to try out. Goes for the 20% RR goon unit thing that EP has in general as well as nerfing them by reverting a (not really necessary?) change. After that fairly minor tweak if they are still really strong maybe consider -100f I suppose.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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25 Aug 2019, 15:38

Honestly 15% is just ridiculous, just make it 10% and having the WC will still be game changing but less op.
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United States of America Darwin_
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25 Aug 2019, 17:27

I have always wondered why, especially with how dominant sepoys and janissaries are/were, why we didn’t buff skirmisher-type units and instead nerfed goons, zambs, jans, and sepoys and other units they countered. Anyone have an answer?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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25 Aug 2019, 17:28

Because skirms are the dominant unit lol.
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United States of America Darwin_
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25 Aug 2019, 17:30

But if they are, then why are we nerfing the units they counter? If they were truly the dominant unit shouldn’t skirms have been nerfed and not goons?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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25 Aug 2019, 17:32

The goon nerf was aimed at balancing team games because the unit was too mobile and dominant there. Tbh in 1v1 it was never an issue, it was skirm/goon not pure goon.
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Canada dansil92
Lancer
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25 Aug 2019, 17:33

Because skirmishers aren't countered hard by hardly anything, making them fairly strong already. Skirm masses can deal with small amounts of most cav, all infantry, and are more mobile than artillery. Skirmishers are the dominant units for a reason. A few specific matchups and maps they are a poor choice but they are reliable, not pop heavy and easy to micro, with excellent range
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No Flag juhjuh
Crossbow
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ESO: MIstress_Shy

25 Aug 2019, 18:01

You now Sepoys are no skrims Right?
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Crossbow
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ESO: MIstress_Shy

25 Aug 2019, 18:02

i think you got the unit names mixed up
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Crossbow
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25 Aug 2019, 18:05

anyways skirms are the dominent Unit, becouse of the age3 meta, not becouse they are really such a good unit.
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France Kaiserklein
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05 Sep 2019, 18:05

Garja wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Also, native livestock gathering rate is only 1.25, and assuming you only find 4-6, the net livestock benefit is small...

Do bear in mind the food up also speeds up the livestock gathering. Here comes why it's only 1.25 rate :idea:
Regardless of math, fattened livestock feels pretty good usually, so it's not a negligible bonus.

I know it's been a while, but I just randomly remembered that and tested it quickly. The gathering rate is 2 food/sec just like for other civs.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Italy gamevideo113
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05 Sep 2019, 19:08

Kaiserklein wrote:
Garja wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Also, native livestock gathering rate is only 1.25, and assuming you only find 4-6, the net livestock benefit is small...

Do bear in mind the food up also speeds up the livestock gathering. Here comes why it's only 1.25 rate :idea:
Regardless of math, fattened livestock feels pretty good usually, so it's not a negligible bonus.

I know it's been a while, but I just randomly remembered that and tested it quickly. The gathering rate is 2 food/sec just like for other civs.

That's really good to know actually.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019

Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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Canada dansil92
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06 Sep 2019, 00:29

Iro has a lowered fattening rate for livestock on the farm for colonial age only, which reverts to normal upon reaching fortress age. That is, assuming that was never changed since 2008 at any point. Gather rate shouldn't ever change for any non-cdb non-settlerwagon vill
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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07 Nov 2019, 15:57

As someone who's been playing a lot of iro recently, I believe they need more nerfs than the current ones. As far as I can see, the Iroquois' only nerf in EP7 is its WC aura being reduced from 15 to 10%. Its units are still way too strong in the late game, especially with the firepit. I've attached a recorded game (no egorec) of a game which I should've lost by all means and only won due to iro's imbalances. @zoom per your request.
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[EP6-1 SP] Mr_Bramboy[IR] vs El_Matad0r[SP] - ESOC High Plains.age3yrec
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ESOC High Plains
ESOC High Plains
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 6.1
Length: 32 minutes
France chronique
Dragoon
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Location: France

07 Nov 2019, 16:05

I am agree. This nerf is not significant. But spain is very bad too (and there buff are not significant neither).
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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07 Nov 2019, 16:31

5% on all units is pretty significant. Frankly people shouldn't advocate for buff or nerfs when they have limitated experience with a civ. Couple civ-polls ago Iro was considered one of the weakest civs and only because players tend to not have much clue. Just don't bother assessing how much nerf or buffs a civ need and focus on playing civs and finding ways to play around things you think are too weak/too strong.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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07 Nov 2019, 16:35

Idk every civ feels strong when up against spain. I do think iro are a wee bit too strong, id consider nerfing the warchief (hp and/or aura) and be done with it.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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07 Nov 2019, 17:20

I haven't played since the nerf but Iro was way too strong in the previous patch.
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France Kaiserklein
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07 Nov 2019, 17:35

Mr_Bramboy wrote:As someone who's been playing a lot of iro recently, I believe they need more nerfs than the current ones. As far as I can see, the Iroquois' only nerf in EP7 is its WC aura being reduced from 15 to 10%. Its units are still way too strong in the late game, especially with the firepit. I've attached a recorded game (no egorec) of a game which I should've lost by all means and only won due to iro's imbalances. @zoom per your request.

Well, iro units are real strong in lategame, but their eco doesn't scale well so it's okay. Also if we start trying to balance the lategame, might as well delete the game honestly. Iro is not nearly as much of a problem as a lot of other civs are in late game.

The current problem is iro dominating most match ups in early-mid fortress, because of how fast they are, how big their unit shipments are, and how strong the units are. Also the fast age rush is a problem in some mus. So I think 10% wc aura is a good start to address these issues.

Ah and the match is really ass for spain anyway so it's not a good example
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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France bwinner
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12 Nov 2019, 00:33

What about changing the detection radius of stealth units to entire los ? It's not just for iro but that's pretty significant for the fp
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France Kaiserklein
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12 Nov 2019, 03:26

Iro would be top civ without stealth on their fps anyway. But yeah it's yet another broken feature that would deserve a rework
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
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Location: New_Sweland

12 Nov 2019, 14:51

Mr_Bramboy wrote:As someone who's been playing a lot of iro recently, I believe they need more nerfs than the current ones. As far as I can see, the Iroquois' only nerf in EP7 is its WC aura being reduced from 15 to 10%. Its units are still way too strong in the late game, especially with the firepit. I've attached a recorded game (no egorec) of a game which I should've lost by all means and only won due to iro's imbalances. @zoom per your request.
First, Garja does make a good general point. Second, I did eventually watch the game, from both sides.

The first thing I noted, is that you found 210f, 95w and 90c in Discovery treasures, compared to the opponent's 60f, 0w and 100c.
The second is that you gained another significant advantage from the Outlaw Rifleman you converted, denying the opponent's TP and killing its explorer.
The third is that Eagle Eye ("Crackshot") is strong. That doesn't mean that it or the Iroquois warrants nerfing, though. To determine that, we must focus more on the overall performance of the civilization, and less on details—even if they are more directly noticeable.
The fourth is that the game was closely contested, despite the aforementioned extreme disparity in the respective players' starts.
The fifth is that the opponent also failed to send any unit upgrade shipments, before the game was decided, resulting in it being militarily outscaled. This seems both a deciding feature of this game, and characteristic of the match-up, in general. Whether on EP6 or EP7, Spanish players might find Unction helpful, to that end. You could also try Lancer—Rodelero compositions, at various points in the game.

As you can see, ITT and through the beta changes, I agree that the Iroquois is a stronger civilization than the Spanish. Beyond treasures and treasure guardians, I don't see how this particular game makes for a convincing balance argument, to that effect, though. Ultimately, you would most likely have lost, were it played on the EP7 beta, which features improved balance of this match-up (provided that our opinions of it are more or less correct), treasures and their guardians.

I will continue to follow civilization feedback and performance, closely. Thank you for your feedback, patience and recorded game!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

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New Zealand zoom
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12 Nov 2019, 14:52

chronique wrote:I am agree. This nerf is not significant. But spain is very bad too (and there buff are not significant neither).
If you think nerfing the Iroquois War Chief's aura by 1/3 is insignificant, and the numerous buffs to the Spanish — along with nerfs to several stronger civilizations — you're likely to be pleasantly surprised. Speaking of the Spanish: Other than the buff to Unction, I think the following change is especially beneficial to the civilization:

– Fortress Age councils and politicians (not wonders), except for "The Exiled Prince" and "The Messenger" research points decreased from 110 to 105

I'm worried that additional changes to these civilizations were excessive, in the context of previous EP changes to them, as well as EP7.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
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