Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

France Kaiserklein
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Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Their stats are completely decent for their cost, compared to normal euro musks they even do better. Their pathing is a bit worse but they get a bit more overkilled. They cost slightly more population but with the free 5 pop from bh I guess that's ok. So why ?
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by thebritish »

The stats matter most, not the cost. They need 20% more musks,so the fight can be even.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

Because they do not posess basic math skills.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by britishmusketeer »

To quote zutazuta: "The effect that you are likely seeing here has in large part to do with how units line up to fire in this game and their maximum range. Imagine two armies of muskets, one slightly larger than the other, line up to fight each other like this (Xs vs Os):
X X X X X
X X X X X
X X X X X
O O O O O
O O O O O
Now, also take into consideration that even though team X has more units that all of these units have the same range, and for the sake of this illustration, each units range is two lines. This means the back row of Xs can't shoot at any of Os units, while the back row of Os units can free be adding in dps to the front lines of Xs units. As units from the front lines of X die, more units filter into the fight in one of two ways, either filling in space left by their dead comrades or wasting time walking around the edge of the fight to get into firing range. Either way, because the units ability to contribute their offensive stats to the fight is limited by factors other than just their pure dps, you can't really just crank out the math and decide how many age 2 muskets it takes to beat age 3 muskets. Their are so many intangibles like walk time, fire range and unit positioning that make the upgraded units more valuable on a whole as well."
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

Probably more important is that a unit twice as expensive and has twice the stats is like 1.3 times better. You want more cost and stats per unit preferably.

But hey the russian musks are 5% too good for their cost to compensate for that.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by fei123456 »

-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by gibson »

Also because they're batched. Many civs can drop two barracks and get out 10/10 musk or close to it pretty soon after aging. This is because they can que up a batch when they have 150 food and 50 gold and just finish it off later. Russia can't do that. They need like 560 and 180 approximately to que up a two batches. Even though they're cheaper, other civs can actually get out more musks earlier than Russia can (early mid colonial, later on it becomes largely irrelevant ofc). And once you get to fortress they just don't do jack shit. Russian fortress musks are colonial musks with no cards to send or anything to boost their stats and in practice they just get slaughtered by fortress age units.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

britishmusketeer wrote:To quote zutazuta: "The effect that you are likely seeing here has in large part to do with how units line up to fire in this game and their maximum range. Imagine two armies of muskets, one slightly larger than the other, line up to fight each other like this (Xs vs Os):
X X X X X
X X X X X
X X X X X
O O O O O
O O O O O
Now, also take into consideration that even though team X has more units that all of these units have the same range, and for the sake of this illustration, each units range is two lines. This means the back row of Xs can't shoot at any of Os units, while the back row of Os units can free be adding in dps to the front lines of Xs units. As units from the front lines of X die, more units filter into the fight in one of two ways, either filling in space left by their dead comrades or wasting time walking around the edge of the fight to get into firing range. Either way, because the units ability to contribute their offensive stats to the fight is limited by factors other than just their pure dps, you can't really just crank out the math and decide how many age 2 muskets it takes to beat age 3 muskets. Their are so many intangibles like walk time, fire range and unit positioning that make the upgraded units more valuable on a whole as well."


Yeah but try normal musks vs russ musks without micro for equal investment (4 russ vs 3 normal ratio), you will see that even with the back russian musks pathing poorly and not shooting at start, they still win...

Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo


If we had to put maths on this it would be 1.2*1.2 = 1.44 so they would be 44% stronger, not 30%. But as said you can't really use maths for this for multiple reasons

gibson wrote:Also because they're batched. Many civs can drop two barracks and get out 10/10 musk or close to it pretty soon after aging. This is because they can que up a batch when they have 150 food and 50 gold and just finish it off later. Russia can't do that. They need like 560 and 180 approximately to que up a two batches. Even though they're cheaper, other civs can actually get out more musks earlier than Russia can (early mid colonial, later on it becomes largely irrelevant ofc). And once you get to fortress they just don't do jack shit. Russian fortress musks are colonial musks with no cards to send or anything to boost their stats and in practice they just get slaughtered by fortress age units.


That's true but I'm talking about people saying russian musks suck. They don't say that you have less mass because of batches training, they say that a certain amount of russ musks sucks more than the corresponding amount of normal musks
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

gibson wrote:Also because they're batched. Many civs can drop two barracks and get out 10/10 musk or close to it pretty soon after aging. This is because they can que up a batch when they have 150 food and 50 gold and just finish it off later. Russia can't do that. They need like 560 and 180 approximately to que up a two batches. Even though they're cheaper, other civs can actually get out more musks earlier than Russia can (early mid colonial, later on it becomes largely irrelevant ofc). And once you get to fortress they just don't do jack shit. Russian fortress musks are colonial musks with no cards to send or anything to boost their stats and in practice they just get slaughtered by fortress age units.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by zoom »

I think they're about as good, all things considered. The real problem is the lack of upgrades...
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by zoom »

Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo

Where did you learn math? From the Jennings Institute of Mathematics for Little Girls??

In other words: You are wrong.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by fei123456 »

zoom wrote:
Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo

Where did you learn math? From the Jennings Institute of Mathematics for Little Girls??

In other words: You are wrong.

80%*80%=64%
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by KINGofOsmane »

Couprider wrote:
zoom wrote:
Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo

Where did you learn math? From the Jennings Institute of Mathematics for Little Girls??

In other words: You are wrong.

80%*80%=64%

dats right
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Kaiserklein wrote:Their pathing is a bit worse

10/10
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by britishmusketeer »

zoom wrote:
Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo

Where did you learn math? From the Jennings Institute of Mathematics for Little Girls??

In other words: You are wrong.

rofl
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by zoom »

Couprider wrote:
zoom wrote:
Couprider wrote:-20% hp OR -20% attack means -20% power
-20% hp AND -20% attack is -30% imo

Where did you learn math? From the Jennings Institute of Mathematics for Little Girls??

In other words: You are wrong.

80%*80%=64%

The execution of your calculation is correct. The calculation itself is incorrect, however.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Garja »

Jerom wrote:Because they do not posess basic math skills.

Pretty much. Also fail to appreciate the importance of cost effectiveness in a game where natural resources are limited.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by KINGofOsmane »

no need to do math russ musks suck
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Jaeger »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah but try normal musks vs russ musks without micro for equal investment (4 russ vs 3 normal ratio), you will see that even with the back russian musks pathing poorly and not shooting at start, they still win...



h2o says you don't want to stand and fight vs russia, because they have a large mass of cost effective units. But apparently what makes russia shit is that you can just do little skirmishes where russia's units are not all firing at once because there's so many.

I also think people say russian musks suck vs cav because for example if you attack ranged musks with cav, once the cav stays in melee range the musk waits for a second while it switches to melee, and then starts attacking. For russian musk, the musk probably die shortly after switching to melee, but normal musk can probably get more melee hits in. Also, if a cav comes close to a line, probably 3 musketeers next to each other will switch to melee, but 3 russian musks in melee<3 normal musk in melee

This becomes less of a problem if u micro them well though
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Mimsy for President »

zoom wrote:I think they're about as good, all things considered. The real problem is the lack of upgrades...
This.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Which other civ is even forced to make non-upgraded muskets?
Oh, none. They all play fortress.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Also, 20% more attack and hp means they are more than 20% worse. Learn to math. Take an easier example:

Team 1: 1 unit with 2000 hp and 200 attack
Team 2: 2 units with 1000hp and 100 attack
Use your insane sick math skills and calculate which team wins without micro.

Also this overkilling is a fucking retarded argument.
How about for example TC fire with colonial militia? 1 hitting russia muskets and 2 hitting normal muskets? Is low hp-->"no overkilling" advantage also in this situation?

I would suggest that KaiserClown would try to use Russia instead of 24/7 german semi.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mimsy for President wrote:French.

Goes usually much much much faster fortress than Russia. +their eco is about 100x better.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

ovi12 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah but try normal musks vs russ musks without micro for equal investment (4 russ vs 3 normal ratio), you will see that even with the back russian musks pathing poorly and not shooting at start, they still win...



h2o says you don't want to stand and fight vs russia, because they have a large mass of cost effective units. But apparently what makes russia shit is that you can just do little skirmishes where russia's units are not all firing at once because there's so many.

I also think people say russian musks suck vs cav because for example if you attack ranged musks with cav, once the cav stays in melee range the musk waits for a second while it switches to melee, and then starts attacking. For russian musk, the musk probably die shortly after switching to melee, but normal musk can probably get more melee hits in. Also, if a cav comes close to a line, probably 3 musketeers next to each other will switch to melee, but 3 russian musks in melee<3 normal musk in melee

This becomes less of a problem if u micro them well though


Yeah so with decent micro russian musks aren't really worse than normal musks right
They lack upgrades but who said making musks as french sucked ?

somppukunkku wrote:Also, 20% more attack and hp means they are more than 20% worse. Learn to math. Take an easier example:

Team 1: 1 unit with 2000 hp and 200 attack
Team 2: 2 units with 1000hp and 100 attack
Use your insane sick math skills and calculate which team wins without micro.

Also this overkilling is a fucking retarded argument.
How about for example TC fire with colonial militia? 1 hitting russia muskets and 2 hitting normal muskets? Is low hp-->"no overkilling" advantage also in this situation?

I would suggest that KaiserClown would try to use Russia instead of 24/7 german semi.


How about normal tc fire (90% of games) needing 2 shots to kill both a normal musk and a russ musk ? Isn't this more overkill ? Your argument is retarded lol
Use your insane sick logic skills and try it in editor mode before you talk...

Why do all russ players become mad as fuck whenever you talk about this civ ? Like you're all so proud to play a weak civ that pointing out that one aspect of it is underrated is intolerable ?
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