Fixed crates?

Yes
66
58%
No
48
42%
 
Total votes: 114

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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 19:42

Since apparently I'm not the only one who thinks that adding fixed crates is the best way to balance the EP, I make this thread with a poll, let's see if that's what people want.
Here is my opinion about it.

Random crates are an issue for the balance, as I said earlier in the day, it can totally change the outcome of a match-up

I/ I'll use the aztec vs ger MU as an example:
When I was preparing my serie vs mankle in the winter tourney, I practiced the aztec vs ger MU a lot with Raphael and nagayumi, and actually I won every game when it was a no wood start (2 vs raph and around 10 vs nagayumi), and lost every game where it was a wood start (2 vs rapha and 4 vs nagayumi).
Okay, it was only 15 games, but what if you consider the other games I played after the winter tourney?
I'm pretty sure kaiserklein could confirm that we practiced this MU together before the ESOC invitational, and that I won almost every games with a no wood start, and I don't even remember winning his germany as aztec when he got a 200w start :P.
If you're still sceptical it is the same vs blackstar_op, out of the 3 times we played this match-up, he won two (1 wood start out of these), and I won one (coin start obviously).
Oh, and what was Prince's start in the final of the invitational where we played Aztec vs Germany? Gold start, ah yeah true

It's just too much to not be considered.
But why so? You could think that I over reacted to my lost game against H2O in the winter tourney and that I blame the crate start , I think that this game wouldn't have gone the same way if it wasn't a wood start, but I still got outplayed this game.
I only talked about my personnal experience (yes I know noboody cares about that, but I had to bring my point :P).
This is the reason why the crate start is so important in this MU, from a theoricall point of view:

In the aztec vs ger MU, it's about whether or not germany can age and have a shipment when they reach the 3rd age.
If they stay colonial and aztec just contains, they should be able to hold the timing if they play it well.
But if the german player can get to the third age and holds the aztec timing, it's just game because then they have more eco, great shipments, better units, just the std ger fortress to sum it up :P.

And in fact, the early TP means that he can age sooner to the 3rd age(the ger player will send 3sw/700w/700g and thus have his 700g sooner, and a shipment when he reaches the 3rd age).
I can name other civs: India, Japan, Dutch who suffer a lot from the crate randomness.


I know many don't like this change, because it changes the game and removes variety, but at some point if you want to balance the game, you have to make unpopular changes :mad:

Just take a look at the current state of the EP: France and Germany changes aren't popular, just be fair, if you take a look at GS' poll, France and Germany are rated extremly low, compared to the previous patch. This is of course a consequence of an over reaction from the community, but at least, even we don't learn too much about the balance, it shows that these changes are unpopular.
We also know that Iroquois is totally unplayable atm, and that Russia is called broken (Port too), because of the vill cost reduction.

II/Well, here is my solution, we want to keep the changes minimal, so just change the crate start, and all will be fine!

1) Give a fixed food+gold start to France and Germany, and unnerf them! What was the issue after all? Germany being able to semi ff with an early TP and then spam shipments, and France being able to age with 13vills, or semi ff with an early TP. Here they would be able to age without delay with a market, and the -100 nerf for France and uhlan HP nerfed wouldn't be needed.

2) Russia 255f vills is broken? Same, just give them a food+wood start, that way they can go early market with gold start (just like what they can do currently), without the vill cost issue. You'll see that it will boost their early economy a bit, but that will stop in middle colonial, unlike the current change.


Previous examples are small. To me, the changes 1) and 2) would make the balance slighty better than it currently is, but this one would balance a civ which is currently unplayable

3) Give Iroquois a fixed food+wood start, and you'll see that suddently, they will be viable, because they will be able to take an early TP (see how relevant it is, it would change the Russia vs Iro or the Dutch vs Iro MU, but since nobody plays Iro atm, for good reasons, nobody knows it :P).
Also keep in mind that with this change, they would now be able to market on no TP maps, another good thing ;)
Here is a rec of me playing Iroquois on the EP with a wood start:

[EP2-1 SP] diarouga[IR] vs Cuauhtémoc[AZ] - ESOC Arkansas.age3yrec
(1022.91 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
ESOC Arkansas
ESOC Arkansas
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 2.1
Length: 9 minutes


Iro feels so much stronger. I went for the ff (yep 6:40 ff with a stable, a wh, a market,22vills and a shipment ready is pretty strong), but you can of course rush and have 4 kanyas at 4:30, build a TP while aging, and then send the 600w shipment to take the TP line.

With a food+wood start, I would play in a tournament as Iro, and I would be fine to face an Iro player with another civ, what's balance if it's not that?
(and doing this is simply not possible without fixed crate because if you try to add a wood crate instead, with a random wood crate they will have a 200w start and thus it will just be RE iro)

4) Give Japan a fixed food start, the gold start really sucks, they're 30sec slower if then more, and the wood start is really op.

5) If India is considered as a weak civ, give them a wood start. In my opinion, they're more or less fine but they're terrible with a gold start.
Solution? Food start.

6) Port. If you give them a fixed food+wood start and remove the vill discount, I think that they would be fine (I'm not sure about this one, I have to admit), but giving them a gold start would probably balance them, even with 80f vills.

Tell me if you agree, removing this aspect of the game sucks yes, but what are the other solutions?
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Tuvalu gibson
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01 Dec 2016, 20:02

There really is no legitimate argument against it except this "don't standardize the game blah blah blah blah" bullshit I think
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:03

gibson wrote:There really is no legitimate argument against it except this "don't standardize the game blah blah blah blah" bullshit I think

Which is the opinion of half of the community I think. So if I want it to happen, I have to try to convince them :P, that's why I made this post. If it's not enough, then there is nothing more I can do.
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Canada forgrin
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01 Dec 2016, 20:09

It's not even standardisation tbh, for almost all civs it's just removing a shitty RNG element that can skew games at time 0. If anything, this will allow more flexibility by allowing civs to rely on good starts to do specific builds rather than having to hope they have the crate start for it.
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Hungary Dsy
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01 Dec 2016, 20:10

I agree its totally different to play vs an early tp german than a notp german. They age up same time but one has 1 card more all game which is an insane boost for luck.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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01 Dec 2016, 20:11

Ideally this would be an option to toggle before a game similar to the FFA and handicap options, though I do not think that is possible.

Fixing crate spawns is simply too far out of EP's original philosophy to implement as a standard, imo, even though personally I support it. It would serve to divide the player base even more potentially causing a rift between EP versions which is obviously not something we want. We want everyone to be moving onto the next version of EP willingly.

I've heard some solid arguments for keeping the randomness, namely, the skill gap it creates in certain difficult age 1 macros (think ger 200w 200f) and I find a compelling argument in that but so do I find compelling arguments in the OP here, which is why I'd love to see something toggle-able.

I even think this upcoming 2v2 invitational or similar smaller event could be used as a sort of testing ground.
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Great Britain britishmusketeer
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01 Dec 2016, 20:14

sircallen wrote:It would serve to divide the player base even more potentially causing a rift between EP versions which is obviously not something we want.

I really doubt that tbh.
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:18

sircallen wrote:Ideally this would be an option to toggle before a game similar to the FFA and handicap options, though I do not think that is possible.

Fixing crate spawns is simply too far out of EP's original philosophy to implement as a standard, imo, even though personally I support it. It would serve to divide the player base even more potentially causing a rift between EP versions which is obviously not something we want. We want everyone to be moving onto the next version of EP willingly.

I've heard some solid arguments for keeping the randomness, namely, the skill gap it creates in certain difficult age 1 macros (think ger 200w 200f) and I find a compelling argument but so do I find compelling arguments in the OP here, which is why I'd love to see something toggle-able.

I even think this upcoming 2v2 invitational or similar smaller event could be used as a sort of testing ground.

That's true that it changes the age 1 macro, but honestly when you've played more than 2000 games (it's not the case of everybody, but not everybody plays on the EP anyway), it just doesn't change much.
And the iro balance is just too big.
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:19

britishmusketeer wrote:
sircallen wrote:It would serve to divide the player base even more potentially causing a rift between EP versions which is obviously not something we want.

I really doubt that tbh.

Yeah, quite unlikely
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Serbia Atomiswave
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01 Dec 2016, 20:21

gibson wrote:There really is no legitimate argument against it except this "don't standardize the game blah blah blah blah" bullshit I think


I think small number of people will use standardize argument, because fixed crates will not ruin civ uniqueness. This is purely a matter of balance and everyone having same chances. I always disliked random crate "feature" in AOE III, because it doesn't work well in competitive environment. In RTS games where everything matters we can't have RNG features which can sometimes moderately affect outcome of the match.

Only remotely "bad thing" I could think coming from this change is little to no variation in BO'S starting phase, cause crates will be fixed.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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01 Dec 2016, 20:25

@Diarouga You forgot to mention sioux! they seldom get wood, and if they do, its only 100. This is not good, when we all know how much they rely on a TP to be compatible
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Hungary Dsy
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01 Dec 2016, 20:26

I cant watch the rec cause i get crash every time i start the exe lol...
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:28

iwillspankyou wrote:@Diarouga You forgot to mention sioux! they seldom get wood, and if they do, its only 100. This is not good, when we all know how much they rely on a TP to be compatible

If then they can age with 16v and a TP without iddle time it would be a great idea, else it's just not enough...
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Serbia Atomiswave
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01 Dec 2016, 20:33

Diarouga wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:@Diarouga You forgot to mention sioux! they seldom get wood, and if they do, its only 100. This is not good, when we all know how much they rely on a TP to be compatible

If then they can age with 16v and a TP without iddle time it would be a great idea, else it's just not enough...


What previous ep changes do you propose to stay? Wall nerf, goon nerf, Spain's unit shipment buffs?
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:39

Atomiswave wrote:
Diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

If then they can age with 16v and a TP without iddle time it would be a great idea, else it's just not enough...


What previous ep changes do you propose to stay? Wall nerf, goon nerf, Spain's unit shipment buffs?

The wall and the goon nerf are good.
I think that instead of nerfing Genitour to 19 range, I would nerf them to 18 and add 3 goons to the shipment (then they wouldn't rape in late game anymore).
Spain unit shipment buffs are fine imo.
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Serbia Atomiswave
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01 Dec 2016, 20:41

Diarouga wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


What previous ep changes do you propose to stay? Wall nerf, goon nerf, Spain's unit shipment buffs?

The wall and the goon nerf are good.
I think that instead of nerfing Genitour to 19 range, I would nerf them to 18 and add 3 goons to the shipment (then they wouldn't rape in late game anymore).
Spain unit shipment buffs are fine imo.


Also what about Otto crates?
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France Diarouga
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01 Dec 2016, 20:41

Atomiswave wrote:
Diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

The wall and the goon nerf are good.
I think that instead of nerfing Genitour to 19 range, I would nerf them to 18 and add 3 goons to the shipment (then they wouldn't rape in late game anymore).
Spain unit shipment buffs are fine imo.


Also what about Otto crates?

I don't know :)
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Japan Aizamk
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01 Dec 2016, 20:42

I see "official"
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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01 Dec 2016, 20:43

Well, it's the official unofficial thread?
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Norway iwillspankyou
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01 Dec 2016, 20:44

Diarouga wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:@Diarouga You forgot to mention sioux! they seldom get wood, and if they do, its only 100. This is not good, when we all know how much they rely on a TP to be compatible

If then they can age with 16v and a TP without iddle time it would be a great idea, else it's just not enough...


Its not enough, but would certainly narrow the gap IMO :unsure:
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Serbia Atomiswave
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01 Dec 2016, 20:48

iwillspankyou wrote:
Diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

If then they can age with 16v and a TP without iddle time it would be a great idea, else it's just not enough...


Its not enough, but would certainly narrow the gap IMO :unsure:


Sioux need more side buffs and tweaks, crates will certainly not be enough i think.
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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01 Dec 2016, 20:51

I like the element of randomness it helps keep players on their toes and keeps games more exciting.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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01 Dec 2016, 20:52

Atomiswave wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Its not enough, but would certainly narrow the gap IMO :unsure:


Sioux need more side buffs and tweaks, crates will certainly not be enough i think.


Of course you are right, but it kind of nags me that Sioux are left out of the discussion - once more - cos they get the short end of the stick when it comes to crates 2 :unsure:
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Canada forgrin
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01 Dec 2016, 20:53

iwillspankyou wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Sioux need more side buffs and tweaks, crates will certainly not be enough i think.


Of course you are right, but it kind of nags me that Sioux are left out of the discussion - once more - cos they get the short end of the stick when it comes to crates 2 :unsure:


Yeah, 5 vill start and lowest crates? What's going on there...
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Canada forgrin
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01 Dec 2016, 20:54

fightinfrenchman wrote:I like the element of randomness it helps keep players on their toes and keeps games more exciting.

RNG doesn't make games exciting. Good, well balanced gameplay does.
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