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What do you guys think the strongest/weakest civs on the treaty patch are? This is what I think, in order of strongest to weakest:

Brits
Japan
Germany
Ports
France
Dutch
Spain
India
Otto
Iro
Russia
Aztec
China

Noteable exceptions:
-Japan beats Germany harder than they beat Ports, but Germany does better than ports vs all the lower civs.
-Spain would beat dutch in nats on Andes, but lose in any other position, also Dutch would do better in splits or long game situations, so I put dutch above Spain.
-Nobody plays well as or VS Sioux so I can't really get a read on where they go.

Brit
France
Japan
Ger
Sioux
Ports
Dutch
India
Spain
Aztec
Russia
China
Iro
Otto

dicktator_ wrote:-Nobody plays well as or VS Sioux so I can't really get a read on where they go.

:(

Gichtenlord wrote:

dicktator_ wrote:-Nobody plays well as or VS Sioux so I can't really get a read on where they go.

:(

Well except you maybe but you never play

Map (I'm assuming andes)? Nat/no nat (I guess you mean no nat)?

Lukas_L99 wrote:Map (I'm assuming andes)? Nat/no nat (I guess you mean no nat)?

Yeah I guess I was thinking of no nat Andes when I made the post. It'd only be minor changes in nats or off Andes anway anyway (Otto moves down off Andes etc, Japan moves down in nats, etc).

Brits
Japan
Ports
France
Germany
Dutch
Spain
India
Aztec
China
Otto
Russia
Iro

Since it's out of nats Iros are just the worst imo and Sioux could be like top 3 in 3v3s cause of the war chief wrecking culvs everywhere, but nobody plays them (luckily, cause they're just super annoying).

Also I need to test Japan with Samurais vs civs like Ports since Ashis are kinda bad vs Ports and melee compositions (especially with high pop) do kinda well vs that civ, although Samurais suck vs civs with lots of skirm pop (like dutch, france and ger) I don't think they're 100% a cheese strategy, especially since there's an infinite 6 Samurai card that didn't get nerfed unlike the infinite nagi card.

Tier 1
Brits - Very strong when played to their full potential, but only dick, lukas come close to that.
France - Doesn't have a single mu where they do bad, they are even or slightly favored in all mu's both in and out of nats.
Sioux - Strong from what i've seen so far. But is likely just because so few know how to play vs them.

Tier 2
Japan - Probably Tier 1,5
Germany
Ports
Dutch
Spain - Tier 1-1,5 in nats, tier 3 out of nats.
India - Weak vs overpop civs.
Russia
Aztec - Not sure where to place them, but probably tier 2. Weak with in nats.

Tier 3
Otto - Very dependent on the mu, loses hard to any overpop civ.
China - Once your push failed or when you are out of ress you are fucked, can't camp good, can't make a good comeback.
Iro - Decent in nats, sucks out of nats. But have seen very few games with them, so not much to base my opinion on.

China need BUFF :(

paddy_jai wrote:China need BUFF :(

Do you have any suggestions?

Lukas_L99 wrote:

paddy_jai wrote:China need BUFF :(

Do you have any suggestions?

Reset to re and start from scratch?

Gichtenlord wrote:

Lukas_L99 wrote:

paddy_jai wrote:China need BUFF :(

Do you have any suggestions?

Reset to re and start from scratch?

Yeah Imo lol, I want the old standard army back (steppe riders)

Lukas_L99 wrote:

Gichtenlord wrote:

Lukas_L99 wrote:Do you have any suggestions?

Reset to re and start from scratch?

Yeah Imo lol, I want the old standard army back (steppe riders)

That's exactlY what i want XD

China need these cheap scary steppe riders to block enemy for ckn, iron flail is too expensive :( and qiang pike cant take too many shoots from skirm

I am so surprised that Azz has 18 ranged Macehualtin with 48 attack, but CKN still only has 16 range with nerfed 45 attack. maybe give china CKN a buff, increase range? I know from stat ckn is already op unit, but compared with normal skirm type unit, they are way too short ranged.

I have tried 220 pop no op china ( no cow 99 vill, no team artilary card), China can fight even with port with 3 heroes (captain or 1st leunt maybe). Maybe give China sth back, 220 pop? cow? or 120 vill?

Also i dont understand why brit consulate army dont give china falc, i think china already has decent anti artilary (cheap and fast training handmortar) extra culvs seem useless for me.

paddy_jai wrote:
I am so surprised that Azz has 18 ranged Macehualtin with 48 attack, but CKN still only has 16 range with nerfed 45 attack. maybe give china CKN a buff, increase range? I know from stat ckn is already op unit, but compared with normal skirm type unit, they are way too short ranged.

I have tried 220 pop no op china ( no cow 99 vill, no team artilary card), China can fight even with port with 3 heroes (captain or 1st leunt maybe). Maybe give China sth back, 220 pop? cow? or 120 vill?

Also i dont understand why brit consulate army dont give china falc, i think china already has decent anti artilary (cheap and fast training handmortar) extra culvs seem useless for me.

Chu ko nu didn't get nerfed, they also have 15 damage on RE (shooting 3 arrows). Don't forget that ckn have x3 vs heavy infantry and light cav, maces only x2,5 vs heavy inf and x2 vs light cav.
I really don't think chu ko nu need a buff at all, don't forget they also get 299 HP while mace only have ~200?

My idea at the moment is reverting the standard army to the original one (with steppe riders) and giving China cows back, that way they'd be very strong if played well but still need some skill to their full potential (just like british). I'm not sure about 220 pop back, I think 210 is alright.

Edit: That topic is getting kinda off-topic now, I'm gonna create a new one where we can continue this discussion.

Lukas_L99 wrote:
Chu ko nu didn't get nerfed, they also have 15 damage on RE (shooting 3 arrows). Don't forget that ckn have x3 vs heavy infantry and light cav, maces only x2,5 vs heavy inf and x2 vs light cav.

Edit: That topic is getting kinda off-topic now, I'm gonna create a new one where we can continue this discussion.

CKN hp is nerfed from 90 to 85. and the *3 vs ranged cav is dropped so they are a normal skirm type unit with short range and high cost (128f?) considering china cant make food fast anymore

Brits
Japan
Germany (Can play badly and win with op res-score)
Ports (just fair)
Dutch (a better civ to camp than france?)
France (nerfed as f*** eco compared to others now)
Spain (try to stop a spain push: taunt 21)
Russia (I really wanted to put them more above, their eco is much better)
Aztec (even behind walls - only solution-, its not thaaat easy to hold them)
India
Otto
Iro
China

After I've played a few games with Russia and used Strel/Cav Archer/Art instead of the standard musk-heavy composition I have to rank them a bit higher, you can just use so many strelets for tanking with their cheap cost, it's insane. They get 213 HP and 40% RR while only costing 38 food and 10 wood while every regular skirm gets around 290 HP and 30% RR while costing 50 food 65 coin.

Oh and Iros are really the worst civ in this patch, by far.

I prefer strelet/ca, too, but its quite bad vs cav flanks on your artillery.

Gichtenlord wrote:I prefer strelet/ca, too, but its quite bad vs cav flanks on your artillery.

CA are fast and mobile so they can block too, and you can always spam 5-10 musk instantly to block as well. So shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Your cas are mostly spread out in a fight due to theur low range. Just play as russia vs france and you will notice how long it actually takes for even 10 cas to kill a single gendarme.

wouldn't you just chuck your strelet onto your art to block pathing seeing as they're so cheap? CA would then be alright to take out the cav or if you need to make some cossack to help?

Ofc you try that, but when you want to take advantage of russias strengths, you have to try to make a large concave. I dont say that russia cant defend their artillery at all, but, compared to goons, CAs dont do a good job.

Brits
France
Germany
Russia
Spain
Otto
Iro
China

The rest civs idk how to play
And I just wanted to say something!

Gichtenlord wrote:Your cas are mostly spread out in a fight due to theur low range. Just play as russia vs france and you will notice how long it actually takes for even 10 cas to kill a single gendarme.

Russian musketeers doesn't exactly kill them fast either. So blocking with a few musk and your strelets and let CA's deal damage should be just as good if not better than doing no CA but more musk.

martinspjuth wrote:

Gichtenlord wrote:Your cas are mostly spread out in a fight due to theur low range. Just play as russia vs france and you will notice how long it actually takes for even 10 cas to kill a single gendarme.

Russian musketeers doesn't exactly kill them fast either. So blocking with a few musk and your strelets and let CA's deal damage should be just as good if not better than doing no CA but more musk.

Sure musketeer/ranged cav is always better than just one of these units alone.
Now, if you compare CAs and muskets in how they do as a single unit type vs melee cav, I'd prefer musket. CAs initial damage is too low, imo, to deal fast enough damage, while russians melee dmg is quite high and they also snare cav, which makes it easier for your artillery to survive.

I dont think that a mix of strels/ca/musket/art does work though. I still prefer strels/ca/art over musket/art, but that's more of a subjective matter. I dont know which unit mix is overall better, but it probably differs for each match up.

Teach us @Gichtenlord