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Darwin_ wrote:I think sioux just could have been fixed without a rework. Like I think they would be ok with steel traps and maybe an extra starting vill or an extra wood crate. Maybe even change cetan bow cost to 100f, or increase wakina speed. Also 4v -> 5v as well but that might be way too good.

I guess adding Steel Traps is pretty drastic, so it would still be a rework in a way, given that none of the TWC civs has it. I don't think they'd ever need an additional wood crate, they already save tons of wood on houses.

pecelot wrote:

Darwin_ wrote:I think sioux just could have been fixed without a rework. Like I think they would be ok with steel traps and maybe an extra starting vill or an extra wood crate. Maybe even change cetan bow cost to 100f, or increase wakina speed. Also 4v -> 5v as well but that might be way too good.

I guess adding Steel Traps is pretty drastic, so it would still be a rework in a way, given that none of the TWC civs has it. I don't think they'd ever need an additional wood crate, they already save tons of wood on houses.

I guess you could move the first food upgrade at the farm to the market instead (only 10% for 100w 75c). The extra wood crate would be so that they could have tp or market start.

They always can, they save 100 wood on a house in age 1 straight away

pecelot wrote:They always can, they save 100 wood on a house in age 1 straight away

Then they will 16 vill and age up at like 5+ minutes.

What's the difference really from, let's say, Spain's market start? Sioux can use the fast age-up and have the WC to grab juicy treasures

pecelot wrote:What's the difference really from, let's say, Spain's market start? Sioux can use the fast age-up and have the WC to grab juicy treasures

Well fast age up doesn't work because you have no shipment when you age, and your mass suffers b/c you have to chop for a corral. (btw I play sioux)

You mentioned chopping wood in age 1 for a TP, possibly — I guess then you could ship 700 wood first in age 2. Still, I guess aging with 400 wood is not terrible in such cases (market start)? (btw I don't care)

Jerom wrote:

Goodspeed wrote:Whether it is or isn't too strong remains to be seen.

Indeed, however if you look at the effect that is proposed and the amount of balance testing done this seems extremely risky.

Its risky indeed - we could maybe expect that Sioux actually will be played in next tournament AND that they have some chance in keeping up, economically vice -what terrible prospects

Garja wrote:Ye dunno who made the math but basically Sioux can consistently do builds with 5 teepees, TP and market. That combined with no houses required makes their eco comparable to the French one. And that's insane for a TWC civ, especially since unlike iros they are far from being a complex civ to play.

5 teepees, TP and marked cost 550 wood - that is before you make any use of that marked! Remind me again how much wood Sioux start with

iwillspankyou wrote:

Garja wrote:Ye dunno who made the math but basically Sioux can consistently do builds with 5 teepees, TP and market. That combined with no houses required makes their eco comparable to the French one. And that's insane for a TWC civ, especially since unlike iros they are far from being a complex civ to play.

Also remind me how many times you played Sioux in last tournament, and while streaming games?? Then tell me why you DONT - and why

As far as Im concerned - Its been clear to everyone that the civs are not compatible - hence nobody played them in tournament! AND its high time the staff finally did something to try to change that

iwillspankyou wrote:

Jerom wrote:

Goodspeed wrote:Whether it is or isn't too strong remains to be seen.

Indeed, however if you look at the effect that is proposed and the amount of balance testing done this seems extremely risky.

Its risky indeed - we could maybe expect that Sioux actually will be played in next tournament AND that they have some chance in keeping up, economically vice -what terrible prospects

The other prospect might be that sioux is insane and every series has 2 sioux mirrors.

Im all for buffing sioux but this one is a little bit extreme to my taste.

When is this patch going to be live?

@momuuu said

The other prospect might be that sioux is insane and every series has 2 Sioux mirrors.

That would surprize me - lol
The changes are minor imo - I would really want some bigger changes being done. Saying Sioux now are being "overpowered" by these tiny changes are fear mongering into some fantacyland - thats my opinion anyway
What I do fear thought, is that the changes are to small, and we still will not see much of the Sioux being played.

The changes are not minor. Its 20% gathering rate increase for 250w, thats an insane buff.

Jerom wrote:The changes are not minor. Its 20% gathering rate increase for 250w, thats an insane buff.

Gathering rate are constricted to the teepees though! AND Sioux still dont have second upgrades on Marked - so I will still call them pretty minor!
When you take in consideration how BAD the eco was for baseline, it still is not OP in my opinion. BUT if you think it is, I hope you play Sioux next tournament.
IF you do that, and think they are OP cos you win your MUs - Then, and only Then will consider you have a point here

Sorry for the delay, folks. Patch is still being finished and there will actually be some adjustments to what was advertised in the OP.

Jerom wrote:The changes are not minor. Its 20% gathering rate increase for 250w, thats an insane buff.

The formula is 1.04^5 and the 20% limit won't be a thing, so it's actually a bit more.

EAGLEMUT wrote:Sorry for the delay, folks. Patch is still being finished and there will actually be some adjustments to what was advertised in the OP.

Jerom wrote:The changes are not minor. Its 20% gathering rate increase for 250w, thats an insane buff.

The formula is 1.04^5 and the 20% limit won't be a thing, so it's actually a bit more.

How long will it take yet ? I want to practise on new patch :)

iwillspankyou wrote:

Jerom wrote:The changes are not minor. Its 20% gathering rate increase for 250w, thats an insane buff.

Gathering rate are constricted to the teepees though! AND Sioux still dont have second upgrades on Marked - so I will still call them pretty minor!
When you take in consideration how BAD the eco was for baseline, it still is not OP in my opinion. BUT if you think it is, I hope you play Sioux next tournament.
IF you do that, and think they are OP cos you win your MUs - Then, and only Then will consider you have a point here

My point is that this eco boost is just about the strongest way to boost your eco in the entire game. It is objectively a huge buff. It doesnt matter that sioux doesnt have tier 2 market upgrades. This buff is just amazingly good. Sioux wasnt extremely bad imo, just barely not good enough and also not really fun to play.

Now all I am saying is that its risky, imo possibly too risky, to go with this buff. If it turns out too strong Id strongly consider banning sioux for the upcoming tournament. That wouldnt make you happy either, would it?

@momuuu
We shall see - Im looking forward to tournament and hopefully we will see Sioux played again. Im not convinced we will thought
Banning Sioux if they are finally a bit stronger, would make me very dissatisfied - your right about that

If sioux are extremely OP then id definitely consider it.

@momuuu do you really have power to just ban a civ?
If that is so, I would srsly suggest you being nerfd!

pecelot wrote:You mentioned chopping wood in age 1 for a TP, possibly — I guess then you could ship 700 wood first in age 2. Still, I guess aging with 400 wood is not terrible in such cases (market start)? (btw I don't care)

Shipping 700w first in colonial is sub-optimal because sioux has no need for that amount of wood, unless they are going stagecoach. You almost always need to age with 400w because it is the exact amount you really need, as long as you already have a tp or a market.

Who here is excited about the new 85f vils for Portugal? Top civ now?!??!?!?

PRStudios wrote:Who here is excited about the new 85f vils for Portugal? Top civ now?!??!?!?

it's 80f in the current patch

oh xD