Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Austria knusch
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by knusch »

Kaiserklein wrote:So tired of people jumping on conclusions. Every patch it's the same story. We've seen like 5 games (not even top level) and suddenly ogm 2 wh age up azzy becomes unbeatable.

That shit is so overrated, it's like everyone decided to ignore the drawbacks of the slow age. Sure it's situationally stronger I guess, but it's not strictly superior.

Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
i still think unction change is horrible, why should one card allow you to max out a ~64% attack boost?
this is soooo out of line....
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Cometk »

Unction has always existed, you just get a missionary with the card now
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

Kaiserklein wrote: Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
Who is "everyone"? GUA for what i know
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

knusch wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:So tired of people jumping on conclusions. Every patch it's the same story. We've seen like 5 games (not even top level) and suddenly ogm 2 wh age up azzy becomes unbeatable.

That shit is so overrated, it's like everyone decided to ignore the drawbacks of the slow age. Sure it's situationally stronger I guess, but it's not strictly superior.

Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
i still think unction change is horrible, why should one card allow you to max out a ~64% attack boost?
this is soooo out of line....
And when did we see that someone uses unction in tourney games?!?! I did not even see it in a stream tbh.guess im the only guy who uses it in rated games anyways^^
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Rohbrot »

chronique wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
Who is "everyone"? GUA for what i know
Unction Rohvolt OP :P
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

Rohbrot wrote:guess im the only guy who uses it in rated games anyways^^
No used it but not like you, that's true.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

You can just club nagi rush the 2WH build and deal with it just fine. I'm sure there are many ways to deal with that rush. What I am concerned about is the potential for fortress play that has not been explored as much.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by knusch »

Rohbrot wrote:
knusch wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:So tired of people jumping on conclusions. Every patch it's the same story. We've seen like 5 games (not even top level) and suddenly ogm 2 wh age up azzy becomes unbeatable.

That shit is so overrated, it's like everyone decided to ignore the drawbacks of the slow age. Sure it's situationally stronger I guess, but it's not strictly superior.

Reminds me of when everyone was crying about the new unction being so op. Guess what, everyone forgot about it now...
i still think unction change is horrible, why should one card allow you to max out a ~64% attack boost?
this is soooo out of line....
And when did we see that someone uses unction in tourney games?!?! I did not even see it in a stream tbh.guess im the only guy who uses it in rated games anyways^^
my point is that a single tech/shipment shouldn't literally brake the whole balance in case u can get away with it
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

knusch wrote:my point is that a single tech/shipment shouldn't literally brake the whole balance in case u can get away with it
Yeah ideally it would be easier to get, but wouldn't boost stats that much if you get away with it. That way it would be less broken, since it would be a realistic option more often without being OP in some niche situations.
But anyway yeah it was like that before EP already.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

knusch wrote:
Rohbrot wrote:
Show hidden quotes
And when did we see that someone uses unction in tourney games?!?! I did not even see it in a stream tbh.guess im the only guy who uses it in rated games anyways^^
my point is that a single tech/shipment shouldn't literally brake the whole balance in case u can get away with it
what about your precious genitor'd jinetes :D
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

U can fast age to fortress which is the most interesting part
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:You can just club nagi rush the 2WH build and deal with it just fine. I'm sure there are many ways to deal with that rush. What I am concerned about is the potential for fortress play that has not been explored as much.
You could already do semi FFs with just one WH age up. The 2nd WH doesn't add much except for more protection and the ability to spam more units later in fortress.
For the record you can even do the 10wp semi FF with the WH age up if you age at 4.10, and it is barely any different from the fast age 10wp semi.

The difference is mostly in colonial timings. I used to do builds with 2WHs, one of which you had to chop for in transition. Clearly, sparing 275w (WH cost+building time) improves those builds massively.
For example 700w 600w 10mace 6 coyo 9 mace and you get like 30 maces and 25 coyo at 8.30 or so. For comparison, 55ish army pop is what you normally achieve with any civ at 9-10 minutes.
Also you can do stuff like making pure maces and shipping 6 pumas. Maces have extremely good dps per cost so in mass they actually dps cav quite effectively (like yumis). 45 maces + 6 puma at 7 minutes or so (especially aging up at 4.10) is hard to hold for basically any civ.

It's a fun change but realistically too good. 1 WH + 1wp would be interesting even tho it doesn't make much sense since the bonus of the WH age up is already increasing huts HP/damage.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by knusch »

Hazza54321 wrote:
knusch wrote:
Show hidden quotes
my point is that a single tech/shipment shouldn't literally brake the whole balance in case u can get away with it
what about your precious genitor'd jinetes :D
very good point!
if unction is fine so r RE jinetes or RE reform. your fault letting opponent getting away with it...
#bringbackJINETES
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by chronique »

Also the 2wh make your follow up more unpredictable, you can push with the same army as before, but witout sending any mili shipement. So you can age fast after your push, or you can send mili shipement for a second one (and you have 2 bh, no need to build a second when your eco progress).

Maybe aztek was slighty bottom civ, but +300 free wood for one age up!
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

knusch wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
what about your precious genitor'd jinetes :D
very good point!
if unction is fine so r RE jinetes or RE reform. your fault letting opponent getting away with it...
#bringbackJINETES
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

This is something I've been considering for a while now: what if Jaguar Prowl Knights had the heavy infantry tag removed and no longer countered cavalry- in essence a true melee skirmisher, similar to urumi.
Heres my reasoning:
Aztec has no shortage of anti-cavalry units, and jpk are probably the worst one, there is literally zero reason to make them. Both puma and skulls vastly outperform them.
It would fit nicely into the Nobles hut design. It would provide shadowteched "goon" "melee skirm" "mediocre culv/mortar"
Jaguars are kind of meant to be the mainline unit of the aztecs, and this would enhance the uniqueness of the unit while not drastically altering the civ.

Approx multi would probably need to fall in line with other skirmishers so i would suggest

3x vs Heavy Infantry
0.5 vs Cavalry
2x vs Light Cavalry

And change the resist to 10rr, potentially 20rr if the hp was lowered.

This is of course just throwing ideas out there
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Have fun countering coy/jags then haha
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I'm ok with tweaking a couple multipliers, but i wouldn't entirely redesign the unit.JPK are already a fun unique unit. It isn't a very predominant unit, but that's because any strat involving them is kinda tricky to pull off.
With the new aztec semi FF we might start seeing them a bit more
Also, buffing units with stealth is dangerous (see tashunke), so it's best to be cautious.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Imperial Noob »

Jags are good vs everything in melee because they are supposed to be able to ambush every type of enemy. They are really not supposed to be used without stealth.

It looks so sad when the Big Button is called, and 2 drop dead before they reach enemy soldiers, with the final one perhaps landing a hit or two.

I don't think that's what they were designed to do.

Instead:
1. sneak them up to an exposed hunt or mine and kill several vills instantly when you distract the opponent with a fight.
2. sneak them behind the enemy's army to snare it.
3. sneak them in front of your base, so that they can scout, and maybe ambush an attacker.
4. If your opponent knows what you are doing, then he must either keep the explorer next to vills or next to the army. Or have units ready to protect the vills. Or train spies.

Spain has stealth detection on dogs for a reason. They are supposed to be good vs such Indian tactics.
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Squamiger »

dansil92 wrote:This is something I've been considering for a while now: what if Jaguar Prowl Knights had the heavy infantry tag removed and no longer countered cavalry- in essence a true melee skirmisher, similar to urumi.
Heres my reasoning:
Aztec has no shortage of anti-cavalry units, and jpk are probably the worst one, there is literally zero reason to make them. Both puma and skulls vastly outperform them.
It would fit nicely into the Nobles hut design. It would provide shadowteched "goon" "melee skirm" "mediocre culv/mortar"
Jaguars are kind of meant to be the mainline unit of the aztecs, and this would enhance the uniqueness of the unit while not drastically altering the civ.

Approx multi would probably need to fall in line with other skirmishers so i would suggest

3x vs Heavy Infantry
0.5 vs Cavalry
2x vs Light Cavalry

And change the resist to 10rr, potentially 20rr if the hp was lowered.

This is of course just throwing ideas out there
this would probably have to be balanced really well to not let it get too OP. I feel like you'd have to balance it out so something like 20 jags is necessary to be as powerful as 8 urumi, since you can train them so much more easily.

also if we're dreaming what if you did this for rodeleros, lol. their historical role was absolutely as a pike crusher, and it makes no sense that they counter cavalry with their little bucklers and arming swords

these are kinda pie in the sky but I remember playing AoM and making hypaspists (anti infantry infantry) and wondering why that type of unit is relatively rare in aoe3
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Squamiger wrote:
dansil92 wrote:This is something I've been considering for a while now: what if Jaguar Prowl Knights had the heavy infantry tag removed and no longer countered cavalry- in essence a true melee skirmisher, similar to urumi.
Heres my reasoning:
Aztec has no shortage of anti-cavalry units, and jpk are probably the worst one, there is literally zero reason to make them. Both puma and skulls vastly outperform them.
It would fit nicely into the Nobles hut design. It would provide shadowteched "goon" "melee skirm" "mediocre culv/mortar"
Jaguars are kind of meant to be the mainline unit of the aztecs, and this would enhance the uniqueness of the unit while not drastically altering the civ.

Approx multi would probably need to fall in line with other skirmishers so i would suggest

3x vs Heavy Infantry
0.5 vs Cavalry
2x vs Light Cavalry

And change the resist to 10rr, potentially 20rr if the hp was lowered.

This is of course just throwing ideas out there
this would probably have to be balanced really well to not let it get too OP. I feel like you'd have to balance it out so something like 20 jags is necessary to be as powerful as 8 urumi, since you can train them so much more easily.

also if we're dreaming what if you did this for rodeleros, lol. their historical role was absolutely as a pike crusher, and it makes no sense that they counter cavalry with their little bucklers and arming swords

these are kinda pie in the sky but I remember playing AoM and making hypaspists (anti infantry infantry) and wondering why that type of unit is relatively rare in aoe3
Plus it would make zoom happy since there would get a really different role (make radjput into low-level urumis too !)
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Have fun countering coy/jags then haha
Same as you beat any cav- skirm combo, spam cav back?
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Actually dont JPK already have 3x vs HI?
So you're just proposing to nerf them vs cav and change resist to ranged from melee? I don't see the point
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

Post by Squamiger »

gamevideo113 wrote:Actually dont JPK already have 3x vs HI?
So you're just proposing to nerf them vs cav and change resist to ranged from melee? I don't see the point
well the point would be making them more like urumi, right, which I think we can agree are much more useful than jags
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Re: Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Post by vividlyplain »

yes, we need stealth urumi... cuz that's not retarded as fuck

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