Pull" Trick" discussion

[[Armag] diarouga]

Dragging units into a formation without hitting a button is not the same as hitting keys that revive a dead unit. Your argument is not valid.

Yes, the difference is that with alt d you need to hut a key!

[Mitoe]

@[Armag] diarouga The way units function in SC2 and AoE3 is simply not comparable in any capacity because SC2 has no formations and AoE3 does.

[Ashvin]

It's so unfortunate that people are actually comparing this with alt d.

[Garja]

Just curious, is it Garjarouga against the world on this one?

Would anyone else in let's say top40 ep elo (to include aiz's opinion) prefer aoe3 with a unit pulling mechanic?

The point is not the mechanic itself but that it is abused every game.

[n0el]

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And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time

It’s not. Alt D is a bug that affects the intended function. Pull trick is not. Pulling is taking advantage of a built in game mechanic.

[Garja]

Exactly, and it is taking advantage of it to a point that is becoming disgusting.

[EAGLEMUT]

Honeslty you cannot argue that it makes sense to have such a mechanic. The only argument here is that some people believe that it's a healthy mechanic as it requires skill, and since these people are the guys who make the rules, it won't be nerfed.

Nice way to blame "the guys who make the rules" while ignoring this is a core game mechanic present throughout most of the Age franchise, is not actually possible for us to nerf due to being a hardcoded behavior of the game engine, and finally pretending that its removal would have no negative effects on gameplay.

It's not going to be nerfed because the "EP team", if there is one, doesn't want to nerf it. You can always remove a mechanic. It is impossible to fix the cover mode abuse so it got removed, same should happen with the pull trick.

Even if we were to remove all formations from the game and have all units permanently in "break formation" (which might be impossible due to hardcoded default squadmode, but whatever), units would still pull together to some extent, as can be observed with Villager pulling. Here I've recorded a video showcase with military units:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiiNtgr ... e=youtu.be

Other option is setting all units to "NonAutoFormed", which is how treasure guardians currently work. This makes units completely ignore each other in a group, thus removing the pull mechanic while essentially destroying unit pathing. Here's a video example of how great this works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3NOiUu ... e=youtu.be

Either of these the behavior you desire? Feel free to propose your own technical solution of how should EP handle it.

[gibson]

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And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time

It’s not. Alt D is a bug that affects the intended function. Pull trick is not. Pulling is taking advantage of a built in game mechanic.

Okay, so you're saying that the people who made aoe3 intended that anytime you have a cannon and a few other units, you can move the cannon at 6 speed? If they didn't intend for that to happen, its a bug. Now whether or not its as bad as alt-d is definitely debatable, but stop acting like just another game mechanic.

[Garja]

@EAGLEMUT
Movement in the first clip actually looks good.

[kami_ryu]

Show hidden quotes

And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time

It’s not. Alt D is a bug that affects the intended function. Pull trick is not. Pulling is taking advantage of a built in game mechanic.

Okay, so you're saying that the people who made aoe3 intended that anytime you have a cannon and a few other units, you can move the cannon at 6 speed? If they didn't intend for that to happen, its a bug. Now whether or not its as bad as alt-d is definitely debatable, but stop acting like just another game mechanic.

I'm pretty sure that yes, it was intentional for the cannon to move at 6 speed. In the name of remaining in formation.

That particular mechanic has been used to beat snare. It's hardly all that bad. Snare makes it harder to disengage, so this mechanic makes the game better, as far I'm concerned. Not that I play the game at a high level all.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@EAGLEMUT
Movement in the first clip actually looks good.

Yes but there's still the pull trick abuse.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time

It’s not. Alt D is a bug that affects the intended function. Pull trick is not. Pulling is taking advantage of a built in game mechanic.

Okay, so you're saying that the people who made aoe3 intended that anytime you have a cannon and a few other units, you can move the cannon at 6 speed? If they didn't intend for that to happen, its a bug. Now whether or not its as bad as alt-d is definitely debatable, but stop acting like just another game mechanic.

I'm pretty sure that yes, it was intentional for the cannon to move at 6 speed. In the name of remaining in formation.

That particular mechanic has been used to beat snare. It's hardly all that bad. Snare makes it harder to disengage, so this mechanic makes the game better, as far I'm concerned. Not that I play the game at a high level all.

Snare is a part of aoe3. I don't like it because escaping is impossible and it makes raids too weak imo.
One could also say that it's lame to lose your explorer while you build a TP or a TC and that thus alt d is hardly that bad.

[Mitoe]

@EAGLEMUT
Movement in the first clip actually looks good.

...Please tell me we're not seriously going to consider this. There's nothing really good about either of those clips.

[Kaiserklein]

Honestly I understand garja's point. Basically he's saying the pull trick is OP, which is probably true to some extent. And nerfing the speed boost it grants would be reasonable imo. But we can't do that anyway, so I don't see the point of discussing it so much.

However, I can't understand people who want to remove it completely. Apparently they don't get that
1) It's technically impossible (which is enough of a reason on its own lol).
2) Pull trick is a core mechanic so removing it would just break the game.
3) There's other mechanics anyway, like dragboxing pikes in front of RI or even making a line of huss rotate, that makes units run in the same way. Should we remove these as well?
4) Using pull trick is not abusing a bug, it's abusing an intended mechanic (arguably an OP mechanic though). Alt-d is a bug.

[SoldieR]

Delusional discussion. It's is mind-boggling that reviving a dead unit THAT HAS A MECHANIC TO PAY FOR IT'S REVIVAL, is being compared to a franchise long type of grouping units into formation.

That is making your entire argument dead in the water. Stick to the fact that you think it's OP as your driving argument.

[gibson]

Honestly I understand garja's point. Basically he's saying the pull trick is OP, which is probably true to some extent. And nerfing the speed boost it grants would be reasonable imo. But we can't do that anyway, so I don't see the point of discussing it so much.

However, I can't understand people who want to remove it completely. Apparently they don't get that
1) It's technically impossible (which is enough of a reason on its own lol).
2) Pull trick is a core mechanic so removing it would just break the game.
3) There's other mechanics anyway, like dragboxing pikes in front of RI or even making a line of huss rotate, that makes units run in the same way. Should we remove these as well?
4) Using pull trick is not abusing a bug, it's abusing an intended mechanic (arguably an OP mechanic though). Alt-d is a bug.

I dont think anyone wants it completely gone, which is why the entire discussion is futile because even if the whole community agreed that when pull trick was abused it was OP and shouldnt be in the game there is nothing that could be done about it.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Honestly I understand garja's point. Basically he's saying the pull trick is OP, which is probably true to some extent. And nerfing the speed boost it grants would be reasonable imo. But we can't do that anyway, so I don't see the point of discussing it so much.

However, I can't understand people who want to remove it completely. Apparently they don't get that
1) It's technically impossible (which is enough of a reason on its own lol).

How do you know that? I'm quite sure that you haven't tried, and since this hasn't been discussed, even the devs probably haven't. It's true that at this moment we don't have a solution, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it.

2) Pull trick is a core mechanic so removing it would just break the game.

It depends on how you remove it, same point.

3) There's other mechanics anyway, like dragboxing pikes in front of RI or even making a line of huss rotate, that makes units run in the same way. Should we remove these as well?

Dragboxing pikes in front of RI is also very abusable, and I think that such a skilless mechanic shouldn't exist. Pull trick is a bigger issue though.

4) Using pull trick is not abusing a bug, it's abusing an intended mechanic (arguably an OP mechanic though). Alt-d is a bug.
It's still an abuse, and it doesn't make sense.

[flontier]

Nobody has been able to show how op or abusable it was in 14 years of aoe3, at least in a serious game.
This discussion sounds like we are trying to create a problem which doesnt exist atm. Let pull trick in peace please.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Nobody has been able to show how op or abusable it was in 14 years of aoe3, at least in a serious game.
This discussion sounds like we are trying to create a problem which doesnt exist atm. Let pull trick in peace please.

Some guys use it in every game which proves that it is abusable I guess.
It's definitely a bigger balance issue than alt d or monk cover mode.

[SoldieR]

I think this comes down to:
yes its annoying to try and catch things like mitoes ruy and skirm, which is like the most frustrating game to play, mitoes age 3 Dutch, and itd be nice to not have it so drastic, but it doesn't seem like you can have formations, which I believe are necessary to the structure, look and feel of the game, and also fix pulling.

Long sentence.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea skirm/uhlan and skirm/ruyt are a joke with pull trick.

[n0el]

Show hidden quotes

And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time

It’s not. Alt D is a bug that affects the intended function. Pull trick is not. Pulling is taking advantage of a built in game mechanic.

Okay, so you're saying that the people who made aoe3 intended that anytime you have a cannon and a few other units, you can move the cannon at 6 speed? If they didn't intend for that to happen, its a bug. Now whether or not its as bad as alt-d is definitely debatable, but stop acting like just another game mechanic.

if they didnt intend it they wouldn't have given units max speed, however they surely didn't forsee its current usage so ill give u that

[Kaiserklein]

I dont think anyone wants it completely gone, which is why the entire discussion is futile because even if the whole community agreed that when pull trick was abused it was OP and shouldnt be in the game there is nothing that could be done about it.

See diarouga's post

[n0el]

I dont think anyone wants it completely gone, which is why the entire discussion is futile because even if the whole community agreed that when pull trick was abused it was OP and shouldnt be in the game there is nothing that could be done about it.

See diarouga's post

also Garja arguing to ban it from events

[kami_ryu]

Dragboxing pikes in front of RI

What the heck is this?