The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

[Jerimuno]

Also there is the aspect of: i fucked up, why waste 10 more minutes on this shit game. Out

[gamevideo113]

Do you want to win? Create a smurf account
Do you want to have fun? https://www.twitch.tv/wellhii

ez

[Kaiserklein]

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

that's fucked up

It's pretty much the same in aoe3. Like when playing against turk

[007Salt]

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

What if you happen to be extremely competitive and you've won games in the past for sticking them out?

[pecelot]

when your opponent can still fuck up, you can still win; why would you resign then

[IGNDontay]

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

What if you happen to be extremely competitive and you've won games in the past for sticking them out?

Um I’ll take a vowel and answer. What if: you’re a try hard-sore loser who can’t accept defeat in the form of being bested that game. There’s competitive and then there’s that.

[007Salt]

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

What if you happen to be extremely competitive and you've won games in the past for sticking them out?

Um I’ll take a vowel and answer. What if: you’re a try hard-sore loser who can’t accept defeat in the form of being bested that game. There’s competitive and then there’s that.

I admit i'm the biggest sore loser who can't accept a defeat.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

I get a lot of flak for resigning games early. Allow me a rebuttal.

Whom do I get flak from? Teammates. Why? They're having fun.

It's fun feeling the slow creep of winning water. You have 112 villagers and more units than anymore. You're slow pushing a 2nt lt, or barely holding a brig but holding. That's fun. No, we're not winning because you're having fun.

Who else? Viewers. It's fun watching a game. You forget your stress and obligations, your paltry life and place on earth. Game ends, the high dies. No, I'm not winning because you're having fun.

I've a GM mentality vs CMs. A game is statistically lost and should be resigned, and so I resign. Why stoop? It's not a win if you blunder. You blundered. What did I do? Blunder less? Or blundered at a more convenient time? I got lucky. It's not fun getting lucky.

When I'm not having fun, I quit.

A little reason goes a long way.

Thanks.

Strongly disagree.

If it's a 1v1, then sure, you can quit.

On the other hand, if it's a team game (and a 3v3 moreso than a 2v2) you should not quit until it's a unanimous decision by your team mates.

Why? Information assymetry.

While you feel the battle is lost, you do not have all the information. Your teammates could be in a better position than you suspect, or your opponents may be in a worse position than you expect.

It is beyond counting how many games I have been on a team to come back from - and likewise many teams where we were certain we had won only to go and lose.

You are welcome to quit if you decide you aren't having fun, but by definition you are robbing your teammates of the "fun" they are having - so don't be surprised if they don't want to play with you moving forward.

There is no fallacy.

[deleted_user]

Nope, I'm right. I don't know what else needs to be said.

[gryphoon94]

I get a lot of flak for resigning games early. Allow me a rebuttal.

Whom do I get flak from? Teammates. Why? They're having fun.

It's fun feeling the slow creep of winning water. You have 112 villagers and more units than anymore. You're slow pushing a 2nt lt, or barely holding a brig but holding. That's fun. No, we're not winning because you're having fun.

Who else? Viewers. It's fun watching a game. You forget your stress and obligations, your paltry life and place on earth. Game ends, the high dies. No, I'm not winning because you're having fun.

I've a GM mentality vs CMs. A game is statistically lost and should be resigned, and so I resign. Why stoop? It's not a win if you blunder. You blundered. What did I do? Blunder less? Or blundered at a more convenient time? I got lucky. It's not fun getting lucky.

When I'm not having fun, I quit.

A little reason goes a long way.

Thanks.

Flawed logic that is purely emotional rather than rational thought.
See: _thenotorious_ & sircallen vs iamturk & kaiserklein

[Hazza54321]

1-0 team gryph

[BrookG]

Show hidden quotes

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

What if you happen to be extremely competitive and you've won games in the past for sticking them out?

Um I’ll take a vowel and answer. What if: you’re a try hard-sore loser who can’t accept defeat in the form of being bested that game. There’s competitive and then there’s that.

I admit i'm the biggest sore loser who can't accept a defeat.

Admitting you are a sore loser, makes you less of a sore loser. In a way you accept your loss, and as a result you aren't the biggest sore loser any more.

[Goodspeed]

Chess is a bit different from Go. Just in the last year there was a pretty famous case of Hikaru Nakamura getting pissed at a young GM (Praggnanandha) for not resigning when he was in a "lost" position. However, Praggnanandha WON that game. There are situations where you may be theoretically lost but it's still worth playing out because the opponent's advantage rests on a pretty sharp precipice where a single misstep could cost them their entire advantage and the game.

The chess AoE3 equivalent is that your opponent has an age 3 army with 2 falcs and all you've got is colonial musk / xbow. It's still worth forcing your opponent to execute the fight because they might fuck up with their falcs and allow you to pop minutemen right onto them, in which case you can swing the advantage in your favor. I think what GS is describing with Go is more similar to a situation where the opponent is Imperial and you're making spies / stealth units and hiding them around the map to force your opponent to kill you completely. You have no hope of winning in that scenario, but theoretically you could play the game out to its end.

I'm sure there are examples in professional Go where players were annoyed at their opponents for not resigning, only to end up throwing the game. There is no way to blunder into a "mate in one" like in Chess, but there are plenty of ways to throw away 10+ points in one move and high level games are often decided with smaller margins than that. Games can easily swing.

In both Chess and Go we see pro players resign much earlier than amateurs. In fact there is a pretty clear relationship between a player's skill and their "resign timing". The better you are, the earlier you resign. This because the better you are, the better your opponent is, the less likely they are to throw the game. And you can better recognize when a game is lost, of course.
Pro Chess players resign much earlier than I ever would, because my opponents are not as good as theirs. They might still fuck up.

And this is where the attitude of "not resigning a lost game is rude" comes from. You are disrespecting your opponent because you apparently think he is capable of throwing a won game. You are insulting his skill. A pro Chess player always letting it go to checkmate or a top AoE3 player always waiting until their TC is destroyed would certainly be considered rude. It just doesn't happen because good players have learned a long time ago that it is senseless to keep playing a game that your opponent would not throw in a million years. When is the last time you saw a pro Chess player actually get checkmated outside of bullet/blitz?

I think this "resign timing" is more of a thing in Go because of what I mentioned earlier about it not being possible to end the game quickly, even if your advantage is huge. The other player always has to agree the game is over. And I guess it's also because Go tends to be a game with a lot of unwritten social rules. It's a very big thing to be respectful in that community, and players are overall much less competitive. Respect before competition. I think that is the case even at the pro level.

And I think that comes back to Callen's reasons for resigning a game he considers lost. Maybe it's not just that he considers it lost, but it's also a feeling of "I don't deserve to win this game". Feeling he got outplayed or messed up so badly that he doesn't think he has any claim to victory, he resigns, even though there may still be a chance if the opponent gets complacent and throws.

The thought of resigning a game that is not necessarily decided because you got outplayed as a way of saying "this game may not be entirely over, but we have established you are the better player" may seem foreign to many. But I wouldn't be surprised if that is a common thing in the Go community. I actually often resign Go games that are not decided because I got so badly outplayed in the early game I know my opponent is better than me. I probably wouldn't do this in tournament games though. But, notably, I also never really did this (as much) in AoE or in Chess.

TL;DR Callen just really respects his opponents

[[Armag] diarouga]

Paradoxically, people complain when I type "gg" when the game is over. "That's agressive gg, it's my call to decide when I resign blabla".
Playing when you have twice your opponent's army and eco and he's hidding is just a waste of time, and not resigning when a game is over is more rude than "agressive gg".

[princeofcarthage]

Let me complete your sentence then GS: "Callen just really respects his opponents, but disrespects his teammates". I don't care what he does in 1 vs 1 (not that I care much about what he does in team also), he can resign at 2:01 for all I care, but resigning in team games without even telling your opponents simply cuz you think you have lost is not right.

How many times we have seen seemingly lost games won, and that too at high level? Your teammate could be aging, Port age 4 can hold 1v2 easily, India age 4 can clear armies. There are many other things happening you may not be aware off, your teammate could be fishing. If you don't get fun playing team games/don't have patience for long games just don't play and stop wasting people's time who really want to play.

2 days ago Hazza played with kynesie water, hazza lost 5 tcs in age 3 and still won the game cuz of kyneise water. Its about team effort not solo. I played vs Eagle yesterday, at one point if you watch the rec you could argue I won the game, but eagle played on and won and it wasn't cuz I threw the game.

Also when I play till the end its not about disrespecting opponents skill or expecting opponent to throw the game, its about me thinking that I can pull of genius strategy and a miraculous win. From what you are saying I can just assume GO players don't have the thirst for win lol. Do you see seemingly lost tennis, football, hockey, cricket games ending earlier simply cuz other team in better? If you can't fight till end you shouldn't be playing at all in the first place with half hearted efforts.

Win can come in any form in any way at any time.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Let me complete your sentence then GS: "Callen just really respects his opponents, but disrespects his teammates". I don't care what he does in 1 vs 1 (not that I care much about what he does in team also), he can resign at 2:01 for all I care, but resigning in team games without even telling your opponents simply cuz you think you have lost is not right.

How many times we have seen seemingly lost games won, and that too at high level? Your teammate could be aging, Port age 4 can hold 1v2 easily, India age 4 can clear armies. There are many other things happening you may not be aware off, your teammate could be fishing. If you don't get fun playing team games/don't have patience for long games just don't play and stop wasting people's time who really want to play.

2 days ago Hazza played with kynesie water, hazza lost 5 tcs in age 3 and still won the game cuz of kyneise water. Its about team effort not solo. I played vs Eagle yesterday, at one point if you watch the rec you could argue I won the game, but eagle played on and won and it wasn't cuz I threw the game.

Also when I play till the end its not about disrespecting opponents skill or expecting opponent to throw the game, its about me thinking that I can pull of genius strategy and a miraculous win. From what you are saying I can just assume GO players don't have the thirst for win lol. Do you see seemingly lost tennis, football, hockey, cricket games ending earlier simply cuz other team in better? If you can't fight till end you shouldn't be playing at all in the first place with half hearted efforts.

Win can come in any form in any way at any time.

The comparison with tennis is irrelevant. Resigning early in tennis is like resigning in the middle of a BO7 because you're down 3-0. You're not out, you can still win the 4 next games and win the serie, and nothing prevents you from doing that.

In strategy games it's different because you are really behind.

For example at chess, if your opponent just sacrified a piece and after thinking for a long time, you see that there is no way to avoid mate, you're 100% lost and you should just resign. If you don't resign, your opponent will assume that you're a noob who missed the checkmate, and he'll be right to do so.
Likewise, if you just have your king against a queen, not resigning means that you expect your opponent to blunder into stalemate (or you think that he doesn't know the queen mate, which is probably even wose), and that's of course rude.

It's just the same in aoe3, would you be happy as a viewer if someone doesn't resign until he loses all his vills and buildings?

[Goodspeed]

Let me complete your sentence then GS: "Callen just really respects his opponents, but disrespects his teammates". I don't care what he does in 1 vs 1 (not that I care much about what he does in team also), he can resign at 2:01 for all I care, but resigning in team games without even telling your opponents simply cuz you think you have lost is not right.

Also when I play till the end its not about disrespecting opponents skill or expecting opponent to throw the game, its about me thinking that I can pull of genius strategy and a miraculous win.
Win can come in any form in any way at any time.

There is a point in the game where, if your opponent doesn't throw, you cannot win no matter how "genius" your strategy is.

From what you are saying I can just assume GO players don't have the thirst for win lol. Do you see seemingly lost tennis, football, hockey, cricket games ending earlier simply cuz other team in better? If you can't fight till end you shouldn't be playing at all in the first place with half hearted efforts.

Half-hearted. Okay. Allow me to present a different perspective.

I think this overly competitive attitude people tend to have shows a lack of appreciation for the social aspect of gaming. A game is something you play together, even if you're adversaries. If you're getting outplayed hard and the only road to victory that you have left is your opponent fucking up in a major way, then by resigning you are saying "Wp, let's start a new one", by staying in the game you're repeatedly saying "Please fuck up. Please fuck up. Please fuck up". Outside of tournament play, the latter attitude is selfish and overly competitive.

Love the game, not winning.

[princeofcarthage]

7-1 at 80 mins in football, there is mathematical chance you could win the game, if it were upto callen he would resign, but we have seen teams scoring 2 goals in extra time and winning the titles. Same goes for tennis, people have came back from 3-0 and won against superior opponents.

I don't expect my opponent will make a mistake and blunder into stalemate, I except my ingenuity to force an opponent into stalemate, there is a difference of attitude here.

No as a viewer I wouldn't be happy, I said it in my first post, that lets say your opponent is age 5 and you are age 3, you should just resign, but resigning cuz you made a blunder in single fight or cuz you are down 20 points is stupid.

[princeofcarthage]

You are again missing the point GS, I am all for resigning when the game is lost, in Aoe 3 I am not saying stay till your last vill is dead, but the point at which callen resigns is not often lost, and thats annoying.

[Goodspeed]

I am not talking about Callen. The TL;DR was a joke. Notice the emoji in my previous post. Team games are an entirely different beast, and obviously resignation should be a unanimous decision.

[Aizamk]

when I’ve lost in theory I generally hope for my opponent to attack me so that I can get a win in practice.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Aizamk resigns late, but on the other hand he sets up traps so it's not really over most of the time.
Still, he resigns when he knows it's hopeless and the opponent has no way to throw.

[Hazza54321]

Theres a difference between an aiz resign or sometimes a turk resign. Still better than a G resign though

[deleted_user0]

What about an eaglemut resign?

[pecelot]

There is a point in the game where, if your opponent doesn't throw, you cannot win no matter how "genius" your strategy is.

I think you should know how many games have been won by opponents throwing...