Australia Peachrocks
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ESO: Peachrocks

09 Aug 2019, 21:44

Well I'm going to press on with these. Yes, I know there's a fair amount of opposition to actually making a feature of the map noteworthy but some do like the idea. So for their benefit here we go.

Why Comanche? Well, map one of the next tournament is on Colorado. This map makes me sad quite honestly and no, not cus of the treasures, the trade route but the natives! The Comanche. Again, like the Seminole these guys were considered 'higher' than I'd put them simply because their cavalry upgrades are decent. Unlike the Seminole though, they aren't quite as good as 25% archer attack but I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's just say these units are... quite bad. Very bad and now everyone will get to see why.

Comanche Horse Archer
Cost: 70 food 80 wood (just over 243 villager seconds)
Build limit: 10
Class: Ranged Cavalry, Archer, Native Warrior

HP: 200
Resist: 10% Melee
Speed: 7.25
Ranged attack: 13 range (2.3x vs heavy cavalry/coyote, 2x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager).
Range: 12
Melee attack: 7 (4x vs heavy cavalry, 2x vs artillery)
Siege attack: 15
Rate of fire: 1.5 (Set up time)


Now lets compare to the non Veteran version of the Cavalry Archer

Cavalry Archer
Cost: 100 food 60 coin (219 villager seconds)
Class: Ranged Cavalry, Archer

HP: 265
Resist: 30% Melee
Speed: 6.75
Ranged attack: 13 (3.0x vs heavy cavalry, 1.75x vs coyote, 2x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager)
Range: 12
Melee attack: 6.5 (4x vs heavy cavalry, 3.5x vs coyote, 2.0x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager)
Siege attack: 8
Rate of fire: 1.5 (Set up time)

Now, it should be quite obvious how bad the Comanche Horse Archer is and why you wouldn't use them under any circumstances other than having absolutely nothing else to spend resources on. It costs more in villager seconds and has much less resistance, much less HP and only has more speed and siege attack (while still not being amazing). It's damage is also higher against hand cavalry. Not sure about Coyotes admittedly, there's a lot the game doesn't tell you when dealing with those units with regards to natives. This will come up later when talking about the Bhakti and Shaolin respectively, there's a lot of nonsense that goes on there.

Moving on. I don't even know where to begin boosting them or what their niche should be. Give them more speed and siege? Kinda boring for a cavalry archer and still not particularly useful. Just giving them a straight up buff somewhere is the most obvious and might suffice but yeah. Maps with only Comanche and there are quite a lot of them make me very sad.

The Techs are a slightly brighter picture but they are merely boring but mildly effective buffs.

Comanche Trade Language
100 food, 100 coin
Improvements cost -10% coin.
Meh. Quite boring, and it takes a bit to pay for itself and it doesn't help that it researches really slowly (60 seconds). If you can somehow get it before going age 3 or something it might be useful as it shaves off 100 coin right there and then. I'd either double the effect or half it's cost/research time.

Comanche Horse Breeding
150 food, 150 coin
Cavalry get 10% HP.
Pretty good. Pretty boring, but good. Probably can remain untouched.

Comanche Mustangs
200 wood, 200 coin
Cavalry gets 10% speed
Can be useful in certain situations, but that is not a cheap cost for what you get. Might be dangerous improving this given it's effect, I'd be content leaving it but I'm open to thoughts.

Well, that's done again. Have fun!
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France [Armag] diarouga
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09 Aug 2019, 21:56

Now compare Comanche with WW, and see that actually they're not that bad, especially for a civ that doesn't have goons and lost map control.
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Bran6new
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
ESO: Peachrocks

09 Aug 2019, 22:21

Sure. Why not. Even though you should need map control to keep them.

Okay. I had to use Elite Comanche because the war wagon doesn't have a non elite equivalent like Dragoons and Cavalry Archers. I'll even ignore the fact you get War Wagon upgrade for free. It is apples and oranges though because War Wagons are not horse archers and thus don't have set up time.

Elite Comanche Horse Archer
Cost: 70 food 80 wood (just over 243 villager seconds)
Build limit: 10
Class: Ranged Cavalry, Archer, Native Warrior

HP: 250
Resist: 10% Melee
Speed: 7.25
Ranged attack: 16 range (2.3x vs heavy cavalry/coyote, 2x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager).
Range: 12
Melee attack: 9
Siege attack: 18
Rate of fire: 1.5 (Set up time)

Veteran War Wagon
Cost: 150 food, 150 coin (428 villager seconds)
HP: 500
Resist: 20% Melee
Speed: 6
Range attack: 42 (3.0x heavy cavalry, 2x Artillery, 0.5x vs Villager)
Range: 16
Melee attack: 21
Siege attack: 30

Okay War Wagons cost about 75% more but they have twice the health, 0.20 melee resist instead of 0.10, more range, just under three times the damage with better multipliers and Comanche do not benefit from Germany's cavalry combat cards. Maybe you see these numbers differently, but the War Wagon looks much superior. Yes okay, fire rate of 3 instead of 1.5 but it's instant fire no set up time.
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 353

10 Aug 2019, 08:14

Cav Archer type units in general seem to fulfill the role of anticav units which stand their ground (-> melee resistance), much in contrast to goons which are hit&run. The Comanche Horse Archer is very obviously meant to be of the first type too. Unfortunately, it does not yield in that regard, since it lacks in the most important stats for standing their ground: hp/resistance. To make the unit more unique and maybe also more usable, I could imagine to improve in this dimension, becoming a more robust cav archer with less dmg output. Given their high cost, an increase of hp to 300 and of melee resistance to 0.3 could be justified.

The comparison to War Wagons seems misleading to me, since WWs are somewhat of an in-between of cav archer/goon types. WWs have the "stand your ground" quality of cav archers (hp/res) and are slow, while having instant fire and a longe range which suit the dragoon role.
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Canada Mitoe
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11 Aug 2019, 03:52

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Now compare Comanche with WW, and see that actually they're not that bad, especially for a civ that doesn't have goons and lost map control.

They’re pretty horrible. WW at least have 16 range and no build limit.

WW have several advantages over Comanche as already pointed out earlier:
- Range
- No setup animation
- More hp/res per cost

The only arguable disadvantages are the speed (which is offset by Comanche setup animation), and rate of fire, which given the inability to micro Comanche doesn’t even seem like an advantage.



I don’t understand the map control comment? If you lost map control then surely you can’t really even make Comanche because the TP would be dead? Even if you could, how is it at all relevant to map control?
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Hungary Dsy
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Posts: 893

11 Aug 2019, 09:58

Unit Hitpoints = 250
Unit Attack = 16
Unit Rate Of Fire = 1.5
Unit Melee Or Ranged Resistance = 0
Unit Food Cost = 70
Unit Coin Cost = 0
Unit Wood Cost = 80
Power Index = 67.554888
Finished

Unit Hitpoints = 500
Unit Attack = 42
Unit Rate Of Fire = 3
Unit Melee Or Ranged Resistance = 0
Unit Food Cost = 150
Unit Coin Cost = 150
Unit Wood Cost = 0
Power Index = 57.166667
Finished
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Germany yemshi
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Location: Germany

11 Aug 2019, 10:05

For gods sake stop using your formula.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Aug 2019, 10:16

Haha yea, using that shit formula should be a bannable offense xD.
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Bran6new
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 353

11 Aug 2019, 10:18

Dsy wrote:(blabla)
Power Index = 67.554888

(blabla)
Power Index = 57.166667

If you want to tell me that, according to your formula, the Comanche Horse Archer is actually better than War Wagons, then I can only support yemshi with: for gods sake stop using your formula.

This is pretty much the proof of how biased and incorrect all results of your formula are.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
ESO: Peachrocks

11 Aug 2019, 10:38

Yeah because sure, if the Comanche Horse archer is allowed to fire at 1.5 per second in perfectly still combat against the War wagon which requires three, then yes, eventually per cost the Comanche will overpower the war wagon, but any player worth their salt would never ever allow this and I think it’d take a long time and huge mass of both units for that to matter. Regardless, it’ll always lose to the Cavalry Archer by a mile.

In any case, I think it’s pretty solidly proven the Comanche Horse Archer is really bad. Even ignoring the build limits and the rest of things that come with every native, even nations with weaker anti cav would never use it.

Honestly the only interesting niche I can come up with is an significant increase in melee attack in addition to a slight increase to HP and melee resist. This way it could perhaps function as some sort of hybrid cavalry, much worse than hussars obviously especially with the fact it’s a ranged cavalry and would still get torn to bits by skirmishes of equal numbers but against artillery, villagers, or small groups of ranged resistance units it would do okay.

It should still be worse than the cavalry archer in terms of its ranged damage per cost but not completely useless.

Otherwise we can just standardise it and make it similar to the cavalry archer how Apache are to Dragoons and lower it’s wood cost so the villager seconds add up relatively evenly.
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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 893

11 Aug 2019, 10:40

14 elit vs 8 ww

If comanche focus its dps its always wins.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Aug 2019, 10:43

So comanches focus but WW don't? :)
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Bran6new
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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 893

11 Aug 2019, 10:44

Both focuses.
Its just if the cheaper unit dont focus it might lose because of the unit drop effect.
But if the focusing correct that effect is so minimal its negotiable.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Aug 2019, 10:45

Dsy wrote:Both focuses.
Its just if the cheaper unit dont focus it might lose because of the unit drop effect.
But if the focusing correct that effect is so minimal its negitabla.

Considering that half of your comanches are low hp, I can tell that the WW didn't focus fire lol.
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Bran6new
Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 353

11 Aug 2019, 10:45

Thanks for that redundant piece of information.

I will just quote what I said above:
duckzilla wrote:Cav Archer type units in general seem to fulfill the role of anticav units which stand their ground (-> melee resistance), much in contrast to goons which are hit&run. The Comanche Horse Archer is very obviously meant to be of the first type too. Unfortunately, it does not yield in that regard, since it lacks in the most important stats for standing their ground: hp/resistance. To make the unit more unique and maybe also more usable, I could imagine to improve in this dimension, becoming a more robust cav archer with less dmg output. Given their high cost, an increase of hp to 300 and of melee resistance to 0.3 could be justified.

The comparison to War Wagons seems misleading to me, since WWs are somewhat of an in-between of cav archer/goon types. WWs have the "stand your ground" quality of cav archers (hp/res) and are slow, while having instant fire and a longe range which suit the dragoon role.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 893

11 Aug 2019, 10:47

Since i dont micro both were placed side of each other. They autofocused their own targets. Probably both group focused as much as other did.
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
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11 Aug 2019, 10:52

As I said before with 16 range and instant fire, there’s no way any player worth their salt would allow the Comanche to just sit there and shoot. That sort of fight means the Comanche get to use their full strength and the War Wagons don’t use any of their advantages. There’s a reason why instant fire is usually considered better than set up times with 1.5 fire rate.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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11 Aug 2019, 10:53

They're faster, so they can almost get in melee.
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Germany duckzilla
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Posts: 353

11 Aug 2019, 10:56

It also does not play a role guys. The war wagon is the most unique ranged cavalry unit in the game. Comparing the horse archer to it is completely arbitrary and does not make sense. No person with half a brain would produce 100% war wagons to counter horse archer and vice versa.

The war wagon fulfills two roles (stand your ground/hit & run). To make up for that, the unit is worse than all alternatives if you consider only one of these two roles. That is what you are currently doing: comparing the stand your ground qualities of war wagons with a unit which is specialized for it - the horse archer type units.

If you want to have a meaningful comparison, then why the heck don't you just take a look at the cavalry archer?
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
ESO: Peachrocks

11 Aug 2019, 11:02

8 ww would be more than enough to kill a Comanche in one hit. Comanche can’t do the same in return by long shot, War Wagons range and high damage allows them to do other things Comanche can’t, like massive range damage to artillery.

In any case it doesn’t even matter Cavalry Archers way outclass them in the comparison I made at the top of the thread to start with and it’s apples and oranges. The only reason I made the comparison was because diarouga asked me to.
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Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 893

11 Aug 2019, 11:23

Unit Hitpoints = 318
Unit Attack = 15
Unit Rate Of Fire = 1.5
Unit Melee Or Ranged Resistance = 0
Unit Food Cost = 100
Unit Coin Cost = 60
Unit Wood Cost = 0
Power Index = 99.412571
Finished
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
ESO: Peachrocks

11 Aug 2019, 12:01

Dsy wrote:Unit Hitpoints = 318
Unit Attack = 15
Unit Rate Of Fire = 1.5
Unit Melee Or Ranged Resistance = 0
Unit Food Cost = 100
Unit Coin Cost = 60
Unit Wood Cost = 0
Power Index = 99.412571
Finished


Yeah. You might want to stop doing that or put a disclaimer that this really only matters when both sides stand perfectly still and shoot at each other. It also doesn't take range into account. It's slightly useful in those niche cases where you are comparing units that are very similar but units like set up archers are always going to come out ahead.

For example the Seminole Sharktooth which has 12 range and set up time would end up very favorably on that calculator whereas anyone who has used them knows they are... really really bad.
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New Zealand zoom
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11 Aug 2019, 12:16

The Comanche Whore Archer makes the Keshik look Garja.
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Germany duckzilla
Dragoon
Posts: 353

11 Aug 2019, 12:29

Peachrocks wrote:Yeah. You might want to stop doing that or put a disclaimer that this really only matters when both sides stand perfectly still and shoot at each other. It also doesn't take range into account. It's slightly useful in those niche cases where you are comparing units that are very similar but units like set up archers are always going to come out ahead.

I also does not take any multipliers into account. Hence, it does not give any information how powerful a unit is regarding its actual role. A Comanche Horse Archer without any multiplier against cavalry would still be far better than a war wagon with *1000 vs cav in this scenario. Although it may be true in a matchup between these units that the CHA wins, the point of them is not to counter one another, but to counter cav.

The standard cav archer is also better here, with a multiplier of 3 compared to the CHA's multiplier of 2.25.

By the way, what do you guys think about my suggestion above? [given their high cost, an increase of hp to 300 and of melee resistance to 0.3 could be justified.]
I imagine a tanky unit (vs melee) which could defend e.g. cannons without doing too much dmg itself. A support role basically.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
Australia Peachrocks
Skirmisher
Posts: 149
ESO: Peachrocks

11 Aug 2019, 12:35

zoom wrote:The Comanche Whore Archer makes the Keshik look Garja.


I also think Keshiks aren't as bad as people say, its just the fact they train with pikes or mortars. They cost only food and are 1 pop so if you could train them alone, they 'might' be decent. Alas you can't, so moot point. I was going to compare them to the Keshiks and still could, you know what, I just might, curiosity overpowers me. Brb :D.

Keshik
Type: Ranged cavalry, Archer
Cost: Food 115 (136 villager seconds)
HP: 110
Resist: 30 ranged (unusual for a cavalry archer btw)
Speed: 7.25 (yay speed)
Ranged damage: 8 (3.0x vs heavy cav, 2.5x vs coyote, 0.5x vs vill)
Range: 12
Melee damage: 8
Siege attack: 5

Cavalry Archer
Cost: 100 food 60 coin (219 villager seconds)
Class: Ranged Cavalry, Archer

HP: 265
Resist: 30% Melee
Speed: 6.75
Ranged attack: 13 (3.0x vs heavy cavalry, 1.75x vs coyote, 2x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager)
Range: 12
Melee attack: 6.5 (4x vs heavy cavalry, 3.5x vs coyote, 2.0x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager)
Siege attack: 8
Rate of fire: 1.5 (Set up time)

Comanche Horse Archer
Cost: 70 food 80 wood (just over 243 villager seconds)
Build limit: 10
Class: Ranged Cavalry, Archer, Native Warrior

HP: 200
Resist: 10% Melee
Speed: 7.25
Ranged attack: 13 range (2.3x vs heavy cavalry/coyote, 2x vs artillery, 0.5x vs villager).
Range: 12
Melee attack: 7 (4x vs heavy cavalry, 2x vs artillery)
Siege attack: 15
Rate of fire: 1.5 (Set up time)

The interesting thing here is that Keshik hand attack is rather high compared to the cavalry archer. It also has ranged resistance which I find is generally more useful. Of course that's where the good times end. It's got less HP per cost compared to the cavalry archer though slightly more damage and of course it must be trained with the pike or mortar. Sooooo... there's that. Honestly, though I've never found Keshiks to be 'that' bad.

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