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gibson wrote:false

Kaiserklein wrote:It doesn't have to be an ff war. You can jan semi for example if you scout your opponent goes ff. And I'm pretty sure jan abus also does fine just because abus can snipe falcs. Some double jan stuff as well. Lots of builds are viable in this mirror, it's more interesting than a brit mirror for example.
Also jan falc mams makes no sense, it's just inferior to jan falc manchus, on ep at least.

bwinner1 wrote:

Kaiserklein wrote:It doesn't have to be an ff war. You can jan semi for example if you scout your opponent goes ff. And I'm pretty sure jan abus also does fine just because abus can snipe falcs. Some double jan stuff as well. Lots of builds are viable in this mirror, it's more interesting than a brit mirror for example.
Also jan falc mams makes no sense, it's just inferior to jan falc manchus, on ep at least.

Depends of the map, jans/abus only can work with a nice stagecoach vs ff. The reason why people don't jans rush is that the 400w ff can be adapted into a quick jan/abus push that fucks the fb. However, since scouting is quite hard in into mirros, I agree that all this theory doesn't really work and you can do a lot of builds.

You need to scout early for this though. The best way is probably to build a rax and train jans. 5/5 jan batch+mm+5jan shipment if needed are going to hold and you will be able to age at some point.

For the mandchous stuff, I guess you don't ship mams if you scout manchous instead of mams in opponent's deck, but 4 mams are nice to threat the 2 falcs/tank forever the jans shoots.
Btw when there is a big stagecoach contention, it's really a lot of skill with the abus micro (abus 3 shoots each other, so there is a higher micro potential than any other unit of the game with them).

fei123456 wrote:a simple 5jan 3hus rush can beat FF (at least 400w FF)

saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

tedere12 wrote:

saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?

bwinner1 wrote:

tedere12 wrote:

saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?

TC kill abus ez, so jans/abus can't commit in base. Then falc trade fine falcs vs age 2 abus, cuz they can also one shot severals and with more range. You can defend with jans+4huss from age up, then falcs and once you've got mams, that's gg

Garja wrote:on nilla it was pretty close. Actually in terms of effort/effectiveness the FF is much better. Jan abus needs perfect timing to beat the FF. With weaker jan and abus I dont think it's too much of a smart idea.

gibson wrote:I feel like Jan rush should work vs a 400w ff. You just seige all his houses and keep him idled and send 3 hus at the right time

tedere12 wrote:

saveyourskill wrote:In my experience in an otto mirror against other good otto players on re at least, I would always do the standard jan abus play in age 2 and it worked around 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time that it didn't was due to walls. All you got to do is idle them and take down houses and save some abus for falcs and then what does the other otto player ship next to hold? mamelukes? He would have to not make any units while aging to send mams. After the first age 3 shipment is gone which is usually 2 falcs, my mass is still large enough after killing his to just win the game after that and right click the tc.
On EP I would think that the ff is better than on re in otto mirrors due to abus nerfed but I don't think it would change that much. I'm not too sure about the jan change if it helps the ff guy more or the age 2 guy more.

how can you deal with jan abus if you ff? Abus 1 shot falcs so if he outmasses he gonna snipe them easily. for the same reason if you make jans he is gonna be able to chase you... And mamelukes/spahi come in late. If you ff with otto you can only train a single unit, so it has to be either jan or abus. If you start abus, he can catch you with hussars (easy to get scouted in your base) ect. What is your plan on ff vs jan abus?