Dutch vs Japanese

_DB_ · Post by **_DB_** » 04 Jun 2015, 10:27

cowhax wrote:why not just FF as Dutch?

Cuz Japan so OP that kills every lame FF (even otto and spain FF suck against Japan). Age 2 Japan with better eco and better mass still gonna own you in age 3.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jun 2015, 10:31

subzero wrote:
cowhax wrote:why not just FF as Dutch?
Cuz Japan so OP that kills every lame FF (even otto and spain FF suck against Japan). Age 2 Japan with better eco and better mass still gonna own you in age 3.

Age 2 japan looses to spain and otto ff...

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 04 Jun 2015, 10:31

subzero wrote:
cowhax wrote:why not just FF as Dutch?
Cuz Japan so OP that kills every lame FF (even otto and spain FF suck against Japan). Age 2 Japan with better eco and better mass still gonna own you in age 3.

No, otto &' spain ff beat Japan imo.

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 04 Jun 2015, 10:32

at the same time ^^

_DB_ · Post by **_DB_** » 04 Jun 2015, 10:45

Otto FF may beat Japan or maybe not. But a smart Japan player always wins against Spain FF.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jun 2015, 11:40

If the jap plays in age2, otto ff wins it easily. It is close if the jap tries a ff.
Japon>spain ofc but it is hard to deal with a spain ff since the jap can't ff... You'll have pikes/falcs/skirms vs Only ashi, even if you have less eco you are in fortess.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 04 Jun 2015, 11:42

edeholland wrote:
cowhax wrote:why not just FF as Dutch?
With how many banks?

well if you send 700 wood or a bank, that slows down the FF.

Id think you age with 400 wood, can make at least one bank. Then if you dont use starting wood for a market, thatd give you a start for a second bank. Then you could ship 700 food, 700 coin, or 4 vills in age 2. If you manage to get up 2 banks, thatd be less than 300 gold needed to mine. So 2 banks at the most before hitting fortress.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jun 2015, 11:44

cowhax wrote:
edeholland wrote:With how many banks?
well if you send 700 wood or a bank, that slows down the FF.

Id think you age with 400 wood, can make at least one bank. Then if you dont use starting wood for a market, thatd give you a start for a second bank. Then you could ship 700 food, 700 coin, or 4 vills in age 2. If you manage to get up 2 banks, thatd be less than 300 gold needed to mine. So 2 banks at the most before hitting fortress.

You wont have a good eco and youll be housed soon.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 04 Jun 2015, 11:51

diarouga wrote:
cowhax wrote:well if you send 700 wood or a bank, that slows down the FF.

Id think you age with 400 wood, can make at least one bank. Then if you dont use starting wood for a market, thatd give you a start for a second bank. Then you could ship 700 food, 700 coin, or 4 vills in age 2. If you manage to get up 2 banks, thatd be less than 300 gold needed to mine. So 2 banks at the most before hitting fortress.

You wont have a good eco and youll be housed soon.

You can age up at 20 vills, then just go back to gathering wood during FF to set up more houses + market + banks.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 04 Jun 2015, 11:54

cowhax wrote:
diarouga wrote:You wont have a good eco and youll be housed soon.
You can age up at 20 vills, then just go back to gathering wood during FF to set up more houses + market + banks.

It wont mass enough to break a jap.
Best way to win this MU is colo play, wickedcoss build is nice.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 04 Jun 2015, 20:30

diarouga wrote:
cowhax wrote:You can age up at 20 vills, then just go back to gathering wood during FF to set up more houses + market + banks.
It wont mass enough to break a jap.
Best way to win this MU is colo play, wickedcoss build is nice.

Eh the FF idea isnt for a timing push or to simply out-mass, but more for a tech advantage and shipments available. Since Japans a passive civ to start, you can probably get away with a semi-ff also. 9 Ruyters is probably the best first shipment for a contain without breaking the bank by having to build a stable + houses as soon as youre aged.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 05 Jun 2015, 05:15

cowhax wrote:
diarouga wrote:It wont mass enough to break a jap.
Best way to win this MU is colo play, wickedcoss build is nice.
Eh the FF idea isnt for a timing push or to simply out-mass, but more for a tech advantage and shipments available. Since Japans a passive civ to start, you can probably get away with a semi-ff also. 9 Ruyters is probably the best first shipment for a contain without breaking the bank by having to build a stable + houses as soon as youre aged.

Youll have a tech avantage sure but then what?
Hell spamm ashis 10/10 and nagis 5/5 while youll only train 5/5 poor skirms...

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 05 Jun 2015, 05:16

japan dont need to train yumi to counter your skirm. he can train naginata rider. and then your hussar are less valuable.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 05 Jun 2015, 05:19

paul wrote:japan dont need to train yumi to counter your skirm. he can train naginata rider. and then your hussar are less valuable.

Naginata suck.

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 05 Jun 2015, 10:28

diarouga wrote:
paul wrote:japan dont need to train yumi to counter your skirm. he can train naginata rider. and then your hussar are less valuable.
Naginata suck.

naginata has 30% rr (hussar only 20%) so it can absorb more damage than hussar in fact. also it has 1.5* plus to skrim. its hp and attack are only a bit less than hussar.

_DB_ · Post by **_DB_** » 13 Aug 2015, 13:18

I just lost to a random Japan guy 2 times in a row.
He sent 5 ashi as shipment, made 5 yumis, killed my forward rax and I could do nothing.

Later I killed few shrines with pikes, but that didn't help me much. I made hussar + skirms and he still won me with ashi + yumi + bald pikeman mass in daimyo aura.

How do you deal with early Japan shipments? That sounds awkward, but they just win with sending military first too '(

Can somebody demonstrate wicked cossack strat?

spadel · Post by **spadel** » 13 Aug 2015, 14:19

Japan loses against hard rushes and fast canons. Since option B doesn't work with dutch, your best chances are probably rushing him. I think I did something like 8 pike/700w (into stable)/700f/ 3 hus which worked pretty well.

Marco1698 · Post by **Marco1698** » 13 Aug 2015, 14:30

spadel wrote:Japan loses against hard rushes and fast canons. Since option B doesn''t work with dutch, your best chances are probably rushing him. I think I did something like 8 pike/700w (into stable)/700f/ 3 hus which worked pretty well.

Dutch rush sucks. At high levels games it doesn''t work

spadel · Post by **spadel** » 13 Aug 2015, 14:42

How many properly executed dutch rushes have you seen so far to come to that conclusion?

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 13 Aug 2015, 15:03

marco1698 wrote:
spadel wrote:Japan loses against hard rushes and fast canons. Since option B doesnt work with dutch, your best chances are probably rushing him. I think I did something like 8 pike/700w (into stable)/700f/ 3 hus which worked pretty well.
Dutch rush sucks. At high levels games it doesnt work

The irony of you telling Spadel this...

Goodspeed · Post by **Goodspeed** » 13 Aug 2015, 15:16

He's actually right

spadel · Post by **spadel** » 13 Aug 2015, 15:42

I didn't say dutch wins that matchup nor that dutch's rush is good lol. But Japan ages slowly and dutchs early unit composition is good. I see better chances winning that way than in an age III war.

..if you like precision: By sending the 8 pikes first and being like 1 min faster you will always have 5 more skirms than he has yumis (unless he ships) units. The 8 pikes can meanwhile siege the toshogu shrine or, in case japan builds rax with 600w, stop him from building military buildings. As soon as there are enough yumis to fight the skirms you will have like 5 hus + 3 otw. Also you always have the ability to ship bank wagon or 600w for more banks. Also 700g for big unit mass, if you are desperately needing it. Actually the skirm hus pike combo is quite scary. With some good macro this thing is kinda strong.

However, Japan ofc can still hold it with good building placement/scounting/decision making.

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 13 Aug 2015, 16:47

Does a pike semi has any chance of winning? And how does wickeds build fare against a japan player making walls?

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 13 Aug 2015, 16:49

jerom wrote:Does a pike semi has any chance of winning? And how does wickeds build fare against a japan player making walls?

Pike semi is hopeless. 8pikes/700w/3huss can be really strong, skirm start so he''ll likely yumis and try to trap him with 8 huss=>'gg.

Mitoe · Post by **Mitoe** » 14 Aug 2015, 00:14

Haven't read through the whole thread, but if anyone cares there's a game at the end of this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?list=PL4DwBHWnAJtRCeKBGLiE_YL2vrgUZbGZO&v=K60iuieIOV8

Me vs Stanley_Winston. That's the build I would normally do vs Japan as Dutch, though there are some adaptions depending on what he does, maybe I'll explain those when I get home from work.

ESOC

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