Announcing the $3000 ESOC Winter Championship 2020!

[princeofcarthage]

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Wouldn't have hurt to throw in a 100 $ prizepool for beginner as well tbh, just so that they also have some financial motivation to play the series.

I had thought the same thing, why not just pay everyone? But at the lowest level is where we suspect the most likely scenario of foul play. Much harder for my code to catch an Int. player trying to play at the beginner level than it is to detect at the higher level's. So, money on the bottom would prolly just get soaked up by the middle.

We are talking about barely 100 or could even do less in a 3k tournament, it may or may not be soaked up by a higher player but the incentive itself of winning some cash is enough for a tournament to run smoothly rather than turning into year long jokes.

The beginner division is intended to be an entry into the tournament scene for new players. Adding the pressures of cash prizes with the chances of souring the tournament experience by getting matched up against a try-hard money grabber playing down a division or two, is not worth the risk. At least in my opinion. If we are laughing at my opinion for a the next year, then it will have been a good joke and well worth it.

Don't be so defensive, if my memory serves correct there were second chance or other tournaments without prize incentives which later on got dragged unnecessarily simply cuz players weren't willing to put any serious effort into scheduling etc. Also on side note no one's laughing at your opinions. I am just saying it wouldn't hurt to spare a few dollars for the winner of the beginner division (at least winner if not 2nd 3rd). They are also going to put equal efforts and probably play higher number of matches. This will also ensure higher participation and retention rate of players.

Just because you'd be in the beginner division

Sorry bro I won't be in any division as I won't be playing but good luck to you in beginners, you got a real shot at winning coaching with princeofkabul.

[Riotcoke]

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Wouldn't have hurt to throw in a 100 $ prizepool for beginner as well tbh, just so that they also have some financial motivation to play the series.

I had thought the same thing, why not just pay everyone? But at the lowest level is where we suspect the most likely scenario of foul play. Much harder for my code to catch an Int. player trying to play at the beginner level than it is to detect at the higher level's. So, money on the bottom would prolly just get soaked up by the middle.

We are talking about barely 100 or could even do less in a 3k tournament, it may or may not be soaked up by a higher player but the incentive itself of winning some cash is enough for a tournament to run smoothly rather than turning into year long jokes.

The beginner division is intended to be an entry into the tournament scene for new players. Adding the pressures of cash prizes with the chances of souring the tournament experience by getting matched up against a try-hard money grabber playing down a division or two, is not worth the risk. At least in my opinion. If we are laughing at my opinion for a the next year, then it will have been a good joke and well worth it.

Don't be so defensive, if my memory serves correct there were second chance or other tournaments without prize incentives which later on got dragged unnecessarily simply cuz players weren't willing to put any serious effort into scheduling etc. Also on side note no one's laughing at your opinions. I am just saying it wouldn't hurt to spare a few dollars for the winner of the beginner division (at least winner if not 2nd 3rd). They are also going to put equal efforts and probably play higher number of matches. This will also ensure higher participation and retention rate of players.

Just because you'd be in the beginner division

Sorry bro I won't be in any division as I won't be playing but good luck to you in beginners, you got a real shot at winning coaching with princeofkabul.

Nice, complain about a tournament you weren't going to play in, REALLY USEFUL

[HeadKilla]

I am just saying it wouldn't hurt to spare a few dollars for the winner of the beginner division (at least winner if not 2nd 3rd). They are also going to put equal efforts and probably play higher number of matches. This will also ensure higher participation and retention rate of players.

New player participation and retention are great points and valid concerns.

[yurashic]

I am just saying it wouldn't hurt to spare a few dollars for the winner of the beginner division (at least winner if not 2nd 3rd). They are also going to put equal efforts and probably play higher number of matches. This will also ensure higher participation and retention rate of players.

There already is a prize for the winner of the beginner division.

[Kickass_OP]

I am seriously considering taking this game seriously!

[Kickass_OP]

Could someone warn Blackstar_op

[Refluxian]

Some first thoughts: Cool that there is a championship again. Very big pricepool, I hope that's sustainable for esoc. I hope the secondary and tertiary prize pools work out. It just kind of sucks that people need money to actually schedule and play their games. I hope it works out and that people don't end up throwing just to get some money.

I am tempted to play but EP 7.0 is too much for me. I might sign up and free lose to win the advanced league though.

I really want to like you, but comments like this have me thankful you will not be playing.

You have to understand that someone doesn't say something like that just to be mean. Diarouga is probably frustrated because he has put a lot of effort trying to improve the balance of the game, giving suggestions and testing a lot of things, which somehow resulted in EP7.0. In my opinion, EP7 is a complete abomination. I don't know if I ever want to play on that patch (to be fair I'm pretty burned out on aoe3 anyways), it just seems like a complete mess that randomly changes everything. I can understand diarouga's frustration. Honestly, even as a viewer I'd prefer it if they played this tournament on EP6. It's the frustration from having actively tried to contribute positively, but also basically having been actively denied in doing so, that made Diarouga says this. I totally understand why he said this.

As for the advanced league prize pool, I also sort of understand the frustration. He's been a top player for years, getting much less prize money than what's on the line here. To see this amount of money go to tier 2 players can be quite frustrating I think, especially knowing that you can't participate at your top level this time around. It is sort of unfair, isn't it?

Winter is coming

not being annoyances. but where did you get those fundings?. It would be fair to spell lit all out for us to z
Edited by Comm Team to improve readability

I don't think it's "fair" to spell it all out. I think ESOC has no responsibility to openly report there finances. You're not a shareholder. You donated, and thus ESOC does not need to justify what they do with the money or where it comes from.

im saying u cant play other civs u fool, im saying you only want to play japs 100%

but I dont. I mean japs are a good all around civ ye but so are lot ofother civs

I’m still a bit confused where you take issue with the civilization rules.

For example, kynesie was able to make it to the Finals of the Autumn Championship 2018 using only Portuguese and Japan. He did win with a few other civs in earlier matches, but in his Semi-finals series with Raphael he won x2 with Portuguese and Japan and consequently earned a Finals slot. Do you think that would be preferable to the current rules, which require knowledge of at least 4 civilizations?

I don't really agree with this reasoning. Why is it bad that someone that is so good at Ports and Japan can win a tournament with them? You phrase it as if you're not at a disadvantage in the previous rules by playing only 2 civs. That is just straight up incorrect.

First of, you are at a disadvantage because your shallow civ pool allows your opponents to prepare better. I myself have experienced that it's so much harder to prepare against someone with a deep, unpredictable civ pool. You can't message a pro player to teach you how to do a certain build or something, because your opponent can basically do so much that it's impossible to target anything. This happened when I had to play umeu, I just didn't know what to prepare for. On the other hand, I have for example spend an entire week practising Aztec vs Japan and Russia vs Japan when I had to face KingofOsmane.

Secondly, you are at a disadvantage because you don't have the flexibility with counterpicking. This is a pretty big deal, your opponents can just first pick something that is good against your strong civs, so you can't actually counterpick. I am pretty known for mostly playing Dutch. Yet, despite being far more competent with them, in tournament settings I have very often elected to not even play them. That's because the counter pick system already favors you playing a variety of civs. Instead of playing the civ you're best with, you're already rewarded (or pushed) to play different civs. For example, I have played a BO5 against Look_Tom were I played India, Brits and Ports, or against Somppu I have played Ports/India/France/India/Otto. I can only recall one BO3 where I played Dutch twice, out of . There is so much incentive already to play different civs.

Then thirdly, in a BO5 you are forced to basically throw one game and in a BO7 you basically auto-lose 3 games. In the old system, you are at a huge disadvantage if you have a shallow civ pool. If someone can overcome these disadvantages and still win, that should be totally fine. Then he's just a good player and that should be rewarded - not punished even more.

And then I also disagree in a bigger picture. Why do we need to force people to play so many different civs? Many people enjoy this game by focussing on a few civs. I actually would argue the majority of the player base mains one or two civs and has only a few other civs they occasionally play. The proposed system goes out of its way to make life hard for people that enjoy experiencing aoe3 like this. Civ variety is fun to some extend, but at some point you're simply frustrating people into doing things they don't actually enjoy. What's wrong with a player being super good at two civs? I'd much rather see very specialized play than people just doing some all around strats, and it seems pretty clear to me that a lot of people prefer actually specializing with a few civs rather than being good across the board. And again, having a deep civ pool is already rewarded in three different ways!

[HeadKilla]

As for the advanced league prize pool, I also sort of understand the frustration. He's been a top player for years, getting much less prize money than what's on the line here. To see this amount of money go to tier 2 players can be quite frustrating I think, especially knowing that you can't participate at your top level this time around. It is sort of unfair, isn't it?

Fair? It is a video game tournament with no entry fee and free prize support open to anyone that chooses to participate. This talk of fairness makes me laugh.

[Refluxian]

As for the advanced league prize pool, I also sort of understand the frustration. He's been a top player for years, getting much less prize money than what's on the line here. To see this amount of money go to tier 2 players can be quite frustrating I think, especially knowing that you can't participate at your top level this time around. It is sort of unfair, isn't it?

Fair? It is a video game tournament with no entry fee and free prize support open to anyone that chooses to participate. This talk of fairness makes me laugh.

You should try to see something from a different perspective, instead of just instantly getting defensive. I get your side too and of course ESOC is free to do so, but I can see why someone like diarouga might be frustrated by it.

[Riotcoke]

Can you only have one account @Refluxian

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

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I don't really agree with this reasoning. Why is it bad that someone that is so good at Ports and Japan can win a tournament with them? You phrase it as if you're not at a disadvantage in the previous rules by playing only 2 civs. That is just straight up incorrect.

The new system can also be used at your advantage in some sense, like kynesie playing 3 port game in a row against Tabben in the NWC qualifier round before finally winning on Florida. This system somehow allowed him to play more game with his main civ.

[Sargsyan]

jermon is a D iarouga follower

[gibson]

As for the advanced league prize pool, I also sort of understand the frustration. He's been a top player for years, getting much less prize money than what's on the line here. To see this amount of money go to tier 2 players can be quite frustrating I think, especially knowing that you can't participate at your top level this time around. It is sort of unfair, isn't it?

Fair? It is a video game tournament with no entry fee and free prize support open to anyone that chooses to participate. This talk of fairness makes me laugh.

You should try to see something from a different perspective, instead of just instantly getting defensive. I get your side too and of course ESOC is free to do so, but I can see why someone like diarouga might be frustrated by it.

Imagine being upset by a tier 2 prizepool when you have the opportunity to win 4x that prize pool.

[Sargsyan]

dmx has a good song regarding this matter, its called "stop being greedy"

[SoldieR]

As someone already said: there was a period of multiple years without one single tournament, now ESOC has one almost constantly. It's insane, unreal. It looks so spoiled to complain about tournaments to me. I understand you can always improve things.

Bottom line, if you want to make the most of this life changing money, you just try to win the most games you can.

I also really like that there are different tiers to try to motivate players to improve and grow the list of high level players.
Great to see ESOC able to generate revenue on it's own and so awesome to have people supporting and growing the community with huge donations. It's really amazing to see what this place has evolved into.

Can't wait to see if/what is done for DE3

[n0el]

I mean, just like many people have said regarding this and the TWC2 tournament. You can play by these rules and have an opportunity to win decent $$, or you can not have any opportunity at all because there wouldn't be an alternative event.

[Refluxian]

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I don't really agree with this reasoning. Why is it bad that someone that is so good at Ports and Japan can win a tournament with them? You phrase it as if you're not at a disadvantage in the previous rules by playing only 2 civs. That is just straight up incorrect.

The new system can also be used at your advantage in some sense, like kynesie playing 3 port game in a row against Tabben in the NWC qualifier round before finally winning on Florida. This system somehow allowed him to play more game with his main civ.

I don't know if I agree with this interpretation. If you can only play 2 (or just a few) civs you're much better off with the old rules still. If you can only play two civs well, and it takes you three attempts to win a game with it, you're probably screwed.

Tbh, Kynesie is a poor example because it's not so much about civs for him as it is about water vs land maps. But for example Dyddyd was a really cool japan player that wouldn't be able to play under these rules, where the old rules were decent for him.

[Refluxian]

As someone already said: there was a period of multiple years without one single tournament, now ESOC has one almost constantly. It's insane, unreal. It looks so spoiled to complain about tournaments to me. I understand you can always improve things.

Bottom line, if you want to make the most of this life changing money, you just try to win the most games you can.

I also really like that there are different tiers to try to motivate players to improve and grow the list of high level players.
Great to see ESOC able to generate revenue on it's own and so awesome to have people supporting and growing the community with huge donations. It's really amazing to see what this place has evolved into.

Can't wait to see if/what is done for DE3

I was just explaining why it would be that diarouga made the remark he did make. He didn't even say "fuck these rules I hate you all for it" or anything like it. He didn't even really complain about the rules. I think there might have been underlying dissatisfaction; I can see how it can 'feel' unfair, even though it isn't truly unfair. Based on such feelings he might have said he'd try to win the tier 2 tournament. If diarouga is convinced his chances of winning the tier 2 tournament are larger than his chances of getting past top 8, then it isn't even a weird thing to do. It might have been better to not say it out loud, but these feelings of frustration could have played a role in it.

I personally don't know about making the tier 2 first place prize higher than the prize for getting to the RO8 in the main tournament. After all, you only get to the tier 2 tournament because you weren't good enough to be in the RO8. I do think there might be "unfair" scenarios. For example imagine Diarouga meeting Kaiserklein in the RO8. One of those two would get less money than they would get for winning the tier 2 tournament, and if things go as normal then those two would basically always win the tier 2 tournament. So there is at least some unfairness in how the prizes are distributed. It might be a bit entitled to get upset over it (did anyone explicitly get upset over it? I don't see that in this thread), but at least it is somewhat understandable that somebody at least strongly disagrees with it.

[Refluxian]

I mean, just like many people have said regarding this and the TWC2 tournament. You can play by these rules and have an opportunity to win decent $$, or you can not have any opportunity at all because there wouldn't be an alternative event.

Idk, I personally think a lot of money is going to a lot of mediocre players. Not that I take offense to players winning money, but I do wonder if there are better ways to spend it. One thing that I would have preferred is to take some money (say, roughly 500/3000) and distribute this among the casters. Casters deserve the money more than people that end up being top 16.

[n0el]

I mean, just like many people have said regarding this and the TWC2 tournament. You can play by these rules and have an opportunity to win decent $$, or you can not have any opportunity at all because there wouldn't be an alternative event.

Idk, I personally think a lot of money is going to a lot of mediocre players. Not that I take offense to players winning money, but I do wonder if there are better ways to spend it. One thing that I would have preferred is to take some money (say, roughly 500/3000) and distribute this among the casters. Casters deserve the money more than people that end up being top 16.

Well, donate 1500$ and you can have it all go to the top or to casters.

[Refluxian]

I mean, just like many people have said regarding this and the TWC2 tournament. You can play by these rules and have an opportunity to win decent $$, or you can not have any opportunity at all because there wouldn't be an alternative event.

Idk, I personally think a lot of money is going to a lot of mediocre players. Not that I take offense to players winning money, but I do wonder if there are better ways to spend it. One thing that I would have preferred is to take some money (say, roughly 500/3000) and distribute this among the casters. Casters deserve the money more than people that end up being top 16.

Well, donate 1500$ and you can have it all go to the top or to casters.

I don't have that much money... I don't have any money to spare.

Do you have to donate to have a valid opinion by the way? Because it sure seems like it.

[n0el]

No, but when someone donates that much on condition of some rules being in place, why is it bad? Sure you can critique it, but in the end, its having that money or not. It isn't like its 100% ESOC discretion on picking formats and rules in situations like this.

[Refluxian]

No, but when someone donates that much on condition of some rules being in place, why is it bad? Sure you can critique it, but in the end, its having that money or not. It isn't like its 100% ESOC discretion on picking formats and rules in situations like this.

Are you aware that nobody has said this money came from someone donating with this condition? You couldve just said that to begin with.

Anyways, theres still 500 zutazuta dollars right? It was just a tip, because the casters deserve to be rewarded.

[[TLDT]Amsterda]

No, but when someone donates that much on condition of some rules being in place, why is it bad? Sure you can critique it, but in the end, its having that money or not. It isn't like its 100% ESOC discretion on picking formats and rules in situations like this.

Are you aware that nobody has said this money came from someone donating with this condition? You couldve just said that to begin with.

Anyways, theres still 500 zutazuta dollars right? It was just a tip, because the casters deserve to be rewarded.

It was mentioned already. viewtopic.php?f=466&t=18685&start=75#p403999

[princeofcarthage]

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Wouldn't have hurt to throw in a 100 $ prizepool for beginner as well tbh, just so that they also have some financial motivation to play the series.

I had thought the same thing, why not just pay everyone? But at the lowest level is where we suspect the most likely scenario of foul play. Much harder for my code to catch an Int. player trying to play at the beginner level than it is to detect at the higher level's. So, money on the bottom would prolly just get soaked up by the middle.

We are talking about barely 100 or could even do less in a 3k tournament, it may or may not be soaked up by a higher player but the incentive itself of winning some cash is enough for a tournament to run smoothly rather than turning into year long jokes.

The beginner division is intended to be an entry into the tournament scene for new players. Adding the pressures of cash prizes with the chances of souring the tournament experience by getting matched up against a try-hard money grabber playing down a division or two, is not worth the risk. At least in my opinion. If we are laughing at my opinion for a the next year, then it will have been a good joke and well worth it.

Don't be so defensive, if my memory serves correct there were second chance or other tournaments without prize incentives which later on got dragged unnecessarily simply cuz players weren't willing to put any serious effort into scheduling etc. Also on side note no one's laughing at your opinions. I am just saying it wouldn't hurt to spare a few dollars for the winner of the beginner division (at least winner if not 2nd 3rd). They are also going to put equal efforts and probably play higher number of matches. This will also ensure higher participation and retention rate of players.

Just because you'd be in the beginner division

Sorry bro I won't be in any division as I won't be playing but good luck to you in beginners, you got a real shot at winning coaching with princeofkabul.

Nice, complain about a tournament you weren't going to play in, REALLY USEFUL

Where do you see me complaining?