Aoe3 DE Gameplay Interview

[edeholland]

From what I understand, Kaiser is not under NDA, but he got his information from others. So he can talk freely while having access to confidential information.

Why he is not under NDA is something I don't understand. If you are an Age Insider, you are under an NDA. If you are not an Age Insider you will never have access to any betas of AoE3, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to participate in betas. I would like to invite everyone to become an Age Insider and hopefully get invited for the multiplayer stress test that happens in a few weeks.

[forgrin]

The entire reason politics came into this was because some players blamed "political correctness" for the implementation being bad, which is just another way of blaming native people for changing their precious game.

Don't think I'm blaming the natives here. They don't care at all about the gameplay of a game they're not going to play (because let's be honest, very few natives play aoe3 for social reasons). I'm blaming Microsoft, and at a larger scale the PC people (like you) who changed society in a place where you have to give oppressed people whatever they want, else you're racist.

The only reason you'd immediately go to "PC bad" (as @princeofkabul points out) is if you had some racist agenda, whether conscious or unconscious.

Here we go again. I'm racist because I don't want political reasons to ruin the gameplay of aoe3 xD.

Ah yes, because native people are poor and can't afford to play PC games. Excellent statement to prove you're not racist (nevermind that there are people on this forum with native ancestry lmfao).

Also, nobody forced Microsoft to do anything. They took it upon themselves to try to better represent the Iroquois and Sioux. It's fundamentally illogical to say that oppressed people have the power to make you do anything they want; if they did, they wouldn't be oppressed.

I don't think you're necessarily racist because you just want to keep your game the same, but the more of your reasoning you explain, the more questionable your motives become.

[forgrin]

...Regardless I don't think having historical inaccuracies is in itself racist, especially in 15 year old media. Arguing against correcting a historical inaccuracy though, as you're doing, is the kind of obstructionist tactic that racists use. ...

I would like to remind you the simple phrase "gameplay is king". Now please continue calling me a racist because I don't think that completely changing the coin mining mechanic would result in good gameplay. I am sure that arguing like that is totally not breeding toxicity here whatsoever.

Now with that said of course correcting the representation is important. I just think making sure that the game remains fun is more important for a video game. I hope they can balance these concerns well in DE. I certainly think it's a bit late changing the Iro/Sioux gameplay, but I guess that this is the only real opportunity there is.

Good thing there are old articles still available where we can gain insight into what was going on in the minds of the original game devs.

bruce-gamespy.jpg

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/age-of-empires ... 725p1.html

This article is cool, thanks for linking it. It reminds me of some controversy around CoD 5 (World at War) where the developers decided against showing the holocaust for similar reasons. However I think that we've moved as a society and video games are considered more legitimate forms of media now, and that comes with additional societal responsibilities when making them. See how CoD WW2 does show concentration camps.

Also I don't think I called you a racist, if I did I'm sorry and I think considering your replies if I did I made a mistake in doing so.

[forgrin]

Note that I personally blamed favouring historical accuracy over gameplay, not politics. In fact it didn't even come to my mind it could be a political change, that's too stupid to imagine. I'm not blaming native people either, I'm blaming the devs or whoever decided to do that.
But yeah that surely means I have a racist agenda!

Think I mixed your arguments up with diarouga's on that point, who is actually trying to argue that PC has invaded his favourite game. My apologies if my responses ended up a bit too general.

[harcha]

...Regardless I don't think having historical inaccuracies is in itself racist, especially in 15 year old media. Arguing against correcting a historical inaccuracy though, as you're doing, is the kind of obstructionist tactic that racists use. ...

I would like to remind you the simple phrase "gameplay is king". Now please continue calling me a racist because I don't think that completely changing the coin mining mechanic would result in good gameplay. I am sure that arguing like that is totally not breeding toxicity here whatsoever.

Now with that said of course correcting the representation is important. I just think making sure that the game remains fun is more important for a video game. I hope they can balance these concerns well in DE. I certainly think it's a bit late changing the Iro/Sioux gameplay, but I guess that this is the only real opportunity there is.

Good thing there are old articles still available where we can gain insight into what was going on in the minds of the original game devs.

bruce-gamespy.jpg

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/age-of-empires ... 725p1.html

This article is cool, thanks for linking it. It reminds me of some controversy around CoD 5 (World at War) where the developers decided against showing the holocaust for similar reasons. However I think that we've moved as a society and video games are considered more legitimate forms of media now, and that comes with additional societal responsibilities when making them. See how CoD WW2 does show concentration camps.

Also I don't think I called you a racist, if I did I'm sorry and I think considering your replies if I did I made a mistake in doing so.

Not that you called me, I just don't like being compared to racists. And I think using arguments like that is very counter-productive and comparable to spilling fuel on a fire.

[Goodspeed]

It's not that far out to claim that this is politically motivated. That is, motivated by the devs trying to be "politically correct" which is somehow a synonym for common decency these days. Because that's what this really is: decency. Sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority.

AoE3 does glorify colonialism, which is a pretty shitty thing to do, and with the white savior complex campaign and the half-assed native civ design it would make sense if they hired consultants to improve their depiction of natives. Good on them for trying to improve it. It would also make sense if said consultants pointed out that native civs' way of gathering coin is historically inaccurate, and for the devs to replace it with a new mechanic.

People who know how the mechanic works are entitled to an opinion on it, but for the rest of you it seems entirely premature to write it off. It seems like a good opportunity to make the native civs feel more unique. But yeah, it also sounds easy to mess up and hard to get right. Fingers crossed.

[forgrin]

It's not that far out to claim that this is politically motivated. That is, motivated by the devs trying to be "politically correct" which is somehow a synonym for common decency these days. Because that's what this really is: decency. Sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority.

AoE3 does glorify colonialism, which is a pretty shitty thing to do, and with the white savior complex campaign and the half-assed native civ design it would makes sense if they hired consultants to improve their depiction of natives. Good on them for trying to improve it. It would also make sense if said consultants pointed out that native civs' way of coin gathering is historically inaccurate, and for the devs to replace it with a new mechanic.

People who know how the mechanic works are entitled to an opinion on it, but for the rest of you it seems entirely premature to write it off. It seems like a good opportunity to make the native civs feel more unique. But yeah, it also sounds easy to mess up and hard to get right. Fingers crossed.

This is a good summary of the situation. The only problem is that having sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority is apparently too much to ask for some people, hence the argument.

@harcha I agree with your sentiment, but what we've had to realize here in NA is that not calling people racists for the last 20 or so years while we were pretending to be "colour blind" caused a lot more problems than it solved. Maybe the situation is different where you live.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ah yes, because native people are poor and can't afford to play PC games. Excellent statement to prove you're not racist (nevermind that there are people on this forum with native ancestry lmfao).

https://www.epi.org/blog/2016-acs-shows ... ic-groups/

Natives earn, on average less than non native people, and gamers are usually rather rich people. I'm simply stating a fact, not sure why you have to get mad at everything I say.

[helln00]

From what I understand, Kaiser is not under NDA, but he got his information from others. So he can talk freely while having access to confidential information.

Why he is not under NDA is something I don't understand. If you are an Age Insider, you are under an NDA. If you are not an Age Insider you will never have access to any betas of AoE3, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to participate in betas. I would like to invite everyone to become an Age Insider and hopefully get invited for the multiplayer stress test that happens in a few weeks.

Yes please I didn't get into the betas last time and I definitely want to test it since my connection to euro and NA is garbage half the time

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's not that far out to claim that this is politically motivated. That is, motivated by the devs trying to be "politically correct" which is somehow a synonym for common decency these days. Because that's what this really is: decency. Sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority.

AoE3 does glorify colonialism, which is a pretty shitty thing to do, and with the white savior complex campaign and the half-assed native civ design it would makes sense if they hired consultants to improve their depiction of natives. Good on them for trying to improve it. It would also make sense if said consultants pointed out that native civs' way of coin gathering is historically inaccurate, and for the devs to replace it with a new mechanic.

People who know how the mechanic works are entitled to an opinion on it, but for the rest of you it seems entirely premature to write it off. It seems like a good opportunity to make the native civs feel more unique. But yeah, it also sounds easy to mess up and hard to get right. Fingers crossed.

This is a good summary of the situation. The only problem is that having sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority is apparently too much to ask for some people, hence the argument.

@harcha I agree with your sentiment, but what we've had to realize here in NA is that not calling people racists for the last 20 or so years while we were pretending to be "colour blind" caused a lot more problems than it solved. Maybe the situation is different where you live.

Eh, I have sensitivity towards natives, I just think that there are better things to do than butchering gameplay for a detail noone cares about.
And I totally disagree with your point about calling everyone and their mom racist for no reasons, it entails more racism than anything. Today, "racism" doesn't mean anything because people use this word too much.
For instance, you claimed that the majority of people in Europe or unaware of the racism issues (which implies that many are racist, even if they're not aware of it). So why would the people who kill black guys care about being called racist ? It just means that they're just like half of the world population.
I'm not racist, but even if I were, I wouldn't care about getting called "racist" by you, because it doesn't mean anything.

It also means that "normal" right wing people have to hide their opinion to avoid getting accused of racism. Thus, there is no debate, and some issues can't be solved, which leads to Trump getting elected. There's the same situation in France, Le Pen (who's the French equivalent of Trump), is getting more and more popular over the years because politicians can't discuss the real issues without getting called racists, thus people vote for her as she's the only one to give answers (wrong answers but still answers) to real issues.

[forgrin]

Ah yes, because native people are poor and can't afford to play PC games. Excellent statement to prove you're not racist (nevermind that there are people on this forum with native ancestry lmfao).

https://www.epi.org/blog/2016-acs-shows ... ic-groups/

Natives earn, on average less than non native people, and gamers are usually rather rich people. I'm simply stating a fact, not sure why you have to get mad at everything I say.

Statements like this are problematic because you're basically saying that Native Americans don't deserve accurate representation in AoE3 because they don't make enough money. This is totally illogical; regardless of whether any Iroquois or Lakota person plays the game, they're still lending their history to the game and deserve some level of input.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ah yes, because native people are poor and can't afford to play PC games. Excellent statement to prove you're not racist (nevermind that there are people on this forum with native ancestry lmfao).

https://www.epi.org/blog/2016-acs-shows ... ic-groups/

Natives earn, on average less than non native people, and gamers are usually rather rich people. I'm simply stating a fact, not sure why you have to get mad at everything I say.

Statements like this are problematic because you're basically saying that Native Americans don't deserve accurate representation in AoE3 because they don't make enough money. This is totally illogical; regardless of whether any Iroquois or Lakota person plays the game, they're still lending their history to the game and deserve some level of input.

Sigh. Where did I say that lol ? Read my previous post again.

I'm just saying that the native experts don't care about the gameplay of the game.
They were asked "what are the historical inaccuracies in aoe3". They answered this, this and mining, and then it is Microsoft's job to fix the issues which are easy to fix, without ruining the gameplay of these civs. Which is why I'm blaming Microsoft and not the natives for these changes.

[helln00]

tbh I feel like people are still getting ahead of themselves saying that this change will suck.

tbh like if they dont do some other changes from RE patch like make Iro not stupid, then the fact that they got changed from mining gold to beavers and fur means literally nothing.

edit: like the thing that is annoying me the most tbh is people saying that they destroyed gameplay for x or y when unless they actually tried it and is willing to break NDA here, they dont know that it will. that is literally just stating opinions as facts

[forgrin]

It's not that far out to claim that this is politically motivated. That is, motivated by the devs trying to be "politically correct" which is somehow a synonym for common decency these days. Because that's what this really is: decency. Sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority.

AoE3 does glorify colonialism, which is a pretty shitty thing to do, and with the white savior complex campaign and the half-assed native civ design it would makes sense if they hired consultants to improve their depiction of natives. Good on them for trying to improve it. It would also make sense if said consultants pointed out that native civs' way of coin gathering is historically inaccurate, and for the devs to replace it with a new mechanic.

People who know how the mechanic works are entitled to an opinion on it, but for the rest of you it seems entirely premature to write it off. It seems like a good opportunity to make the native civs feel more unique. But yeah, it also sounds easy to mess up and hard to get right. Fingers crossed.

This is a good summary of the situation. The only problem is that having sensitivity towards a historically silenced minority is apparently too much to ask for some people, hence the argument.

@harcha I agree with your sentiment, but what we've had to realize here in NA is that not calling people racists for the last 20 or so years while we were pretending to be "colour blind" caused a lot more problems than it solved. Maybe the situation is different where you live.

Eh, I have sensitivity towards natives, I just think that there are better things to do than butchering gameplay for a detail noone cares about.
And I totally disagree with your point about calling everyone and their mom racist for no reasons, it entails more racism than anything. Today, "racism" doesn't mean anything because people use this word too much.
For instance, you claimed that the majority of people in Europe or unaware of the racism issues (which implies that many are racist, even if they're not aware of it). So why would the people who kill black guys care about being called racist ? It just means that they're just like half of the world population.
I'm not racist, but even if I were, I wouldn't care about getting called "racist" by you, because it doesn't mean anything.

It also means that "normal" right wing people have to hide their opinion to avoid getting accused of racism. Thus, there is no debate, and some issues can't be solved, which leads to Trump getting elected. There's the same situation in France, Le Pen (who's the French equivalent of Trump), is getting more and more popular over the years because politicians can't discuss the real issues without getting called racists, thus people vote for her as she's the only one to give answers (wrong answers but still answers) to real issues.

If the Native American consultants cared enough to say it should be changed, then someone cares about it. Also, again it's their history, so on that point you don't really get a say.

It's not calling people racists for "no reason". We already talked about this, nobody says that for no reason. Being called a racist is still a serious accusation here. You and "your mom" might be unaware of your own racist actions, but that doesn't necessarily make your actions not racist. For example, I bet many real estate agents and mortgage brokers during redlining weren't intentionally racist, but their actions perpetrated racism with the excuse of income statistics. Just because they used income graphs didn't make their actions not racist, no matter their intentions or knowledge of it.

This is the same argument here; I'm saying that you calling out "PC" to decry this change is a problematic and potentially racist statement, irregardless of your motivations. This is what people mean when they say we live in a racist society.

It also means that "normal" right wing people have to hide their opinion to avoid getting accused of racism. Thus, there is no debate, and some issues can't be solved, which leads to Trump getting elected. There's the same situation in France, Le Pen (who's the French equivalent of Trump), is getting more and more popular over the years because politicians can't discuss the real issues without getting called racists, thus people vote for her as she's the only one to give answers (wrong answers but still answers) to real issues.

The problem is the same issue as with the mortgage broker example. People aren't necessarily knowingly engaging in racist actions, so if you ask them "hey, why don't you ever sell homes to black people?" they will likely respond that they're not being racist, just using income graphs. However, their actions are racist, they just don't put 2 and 2 together. It has nothing to do with people hiding their opinions. It's not smothering debate, because these "normal" people have no real input, they just can't see the full picture of their actions yet. Then, because humans are naturally stubborn, instead of trying to learn more and accepting they made mistakes in the past, they become convinced that they couldn't possibly be racist because the graphs told them to do it.

[[Armag] diarouga]

If the Native American consultants cared enough to say it should be changed, then someone cares about it. Also, again it's their history, so on that point you don't really get a say.

I don't get a say on their history, agreed. However, I get a say on age of empires 3 and changing the gameplay because of that is wrong imo.

why don't you ever sell homes to black people?" they will likely respond that they're not being racist, just using income graphs. However, their actions are racist, they just don't put 2 and 2 together.

I don't know this topic, but if they're checking the income of a black guy, and picking the white guy because he has better income, then that's not racist.
Racist actions would be to select someone because of one's skin colour. If they do something because of one's income, then it's totally normal, and you're making the correlation/consequence sophism, by thinking that they're discriminated because of their skin colour, while in fact, they're discriminated because of their income.

[forgrin]

If the Native American consultants cared enough to say it should be changed, then someone cares about it. Also, again it's their history, so on that point you don't really get a say.

I don't get a say on their history, agreed. However, I get a say on age of empires 3 and changing the gameplay because of that is wrong imo.

why don't you ever sell homes to black people?" they will likely respond that they're not being racist, just using income graphs. However, their actions are racist, they just don't put 2 and 2 together.

I don't know this topic, but if they're checking the income of a black guy, and picking the white guy because he has better income, then that's not racist.
Racist actions would be to select someone because of one's skin colour. If they do something because of one's income, then it's totally normal, and you're making the cause/consequence sophism, by thinking that they're discriminated because of their skin colour, while in fact, they're discriminated because of their income.

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh. Changing gameplay is Microsoft's responsibility, and they chose to delegate that one specific change to the Native American consultants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

[Mambo10]

Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status.

I am honestly surprised, because all today living humans belong to the species homo sapiens and the state of the art is that you cannot divide them into races because the genetics are not different enough. Therefore their race is not black, there humans:)

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh.

That doesn't mean that we can't disagree and complain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

Ah ok, you were talking about using global race data to select people, then yes that's discrimination.
Using individual data to select someone isn't racism however.

[iNcog]

Idk why some of you dont like the thread, it's an extremely interesting read actually.

I still dont see a correlation between coin mining and Natives. I still dont believe it was a politically motivate change.

@comradecommissar I like your style and would love to read more from you. Right now I participate in rather deep discussions about hate and bigotry in the USA with my peers but I am quite ignorant about racism in Europe, especially per our ex-colonies. I am very interested in your views on the matter, you seem to know a lot.

[iNcog]

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh.

That doesn't mean that we can't disagree and complain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

Ah ok, you were talking about using global race data to select people, then yes that's discrimination.
Using individual data to select someone isn't racism however.

just because ethnic statistics are illegal in France doesn't mean that racism does not exist there. it's easy to lower the bar and say we are better than the USA. which we are. but there are still some hard issues that need to be addressed even in European countries

and USA renaming military bases to be other names than Confederate ones is a GOOD thing.

[iNcog]

Agreeing wit forgrin who gets it

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh.

That doesn't mean that we can't disagree and complain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

Ah ok, you were talking about using global race data to select people, then yes that's discrimination.
Using individual data to select someone isn't racism however.

just because ethnic statistics are illegal in France doesn't mean that racism does not exist there. it's easy to lower the bar and say we are better than the USA. which we are. but there are still some hard issues that need to be addressed even in European countries

and USA renaming military bases to be other names than Confederate ones is a GOOD thing.

Sure, it doesn't mean that we're perfect. But it's not really fair to say that Europe is lagging behind NA, and then take examples which are specific of the NA situation and banned in Europe, to prove that I'm racist ^^.

[forgrin]

Show hidden quotes

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh.

That doesn't mean that we can't disagree and complain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

Ah ok, you were talking about using global race data to select people, then yes that's discrimination.
Using individual data to select someone isn't racism however.

just because ethnic statistics are illegal in France doesn't mean that racism does not exist there. it's easy to lower the bar and say we are better than the USA. which we are. but there are still some hard issues that need to be addressed even in European countries

and USA renaming military bases to be other names than Confederate ones is a GOOD thing.

Sure, it doesn't mean that we're perfect. But it's not really fair to say that Europe is lagging behind NA, and then take examples which are specific of the NA situation and banned in Europe, to prove that I'm racist ^^.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... about-race

I don't know if using the census to deny you have any racial problems is really a sign of being farther ahead.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Show hidden quotes

I don't know if any of us gets a say on what happens with DE tbh.

That doesn't mean that we can't disagree and complain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining I recommend you check out the redlining article.

The issue is that people were selecting based on skin colour, using aggregate statistics to justify it. Black families were targeted because the average income of their race was lower, often regardless of their individual income status. If you can't see how that's racist, I dunno.

Ah ok, you were talking about using global race data to select people, then yes that's discrimination.
Using individual data to select someone isn't racism however.

just because ethnic statistics are illegal in France doesn't mean that racism does not exist there. it's easy to lower the bar and say we are better than the USA. which we are. but there are still some hard issues that need to be addressed even in European countries

and USA renaming military bases to be other names than Confederate ones is a GOOD thing.

Sure, it doesn't mean that we're perfect. But it's not really fair to say that Europe is lagging behind NA, and then take examples which are specific of the NA situation and banned in Europe, to prove that I'm racist ^^.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... about-race

I don't know if using the census to deny you have any racial problems is really a sign of being farther ahead.

I'm not saying we have any issues, just saying we have less. And not using racial data officially is a good thing imo.

[don_artie]

honestly calling someone racist should only be done when someone is actually being a racist. shit like saying i'm a racist because i dont like dark chocolate or kaiserklein is a racist because he cares more about gameplay than history or whatever other example is so dumb. I notice the word getting thrown around so easily that it's also lost it's meaning