the new AoE3

[Miyawaki Sakura]

The player who can play brit, port, and Japan with a Kynesie level wall, water understanding and 400+@ apm will surely be the strongest.

[Vladimatt]

I really like the new meta as a viewer. Way more exciting and interesting than EP meta (though some of the age IV stuff started developing on EP, with france china FI's)

Longer games going to Age IV more often and utilizing more of the game's content adds a lot more variety.

Agree with this. I've been watching alot more Aoe3 since DE (maybe partially since it reignited my interest in the game again) but watching players use more of what civs have to offer is more exciting to me, before it just felt like competitive aoe3 was just musketeer wars and whoever killed the 2 falcs first.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

alright so i'm gonna comment on this I guess. Kaiser is a way better player than me, me winning this series hasn't changed that fact. If you think otherwise I would say that's a bit delusional. Right before we played this series kaiser just went 3-0 vs iamturk in the round1 match and i imagine he went into this series thinking 'alright i'm gonna play a shitter now, easy 3-0' Where as I prepared plans and strategies, trying to find an advantage elsewhere. It's pretty obvious to me that if i'm gonna give kaiser a fair fight with equal numbers on goon/skirms/cav etc he'll just win easily with his skill advantage. Some of you might feel like playing these 'fair' fights is the only right way to play the game, but I personally think the things I used in this series are an important part of the game. After all we're playing a strategy game, not a mechanic check game. And the thing with the strats I used, is that all of them can be countered. But kaiser just did his standard stuff, which can fall short. For example I prepared that dhaka strat a lot and I know what can counter it, but kaiser's plan doesnt counter it at all. To now instantly resort to 'oh this is lame, this should be nerfed' or whatever else, imo, just explore into counter-strats first instead of being so short minded. that's my 2 cents on this

The new hero for us who miss diarouga.

[LazarosVas]

Don studied more and won fair and square.. that is something that all players should be doing. Kind of like when Chess players prepare and study their opponent weeks in advance. The Dhaka game is a pure demonstration of that.. Kaiser is my favorite player but the thing is he should stop complaining about this not being AOE 3..

[Scylla-x]

Congratulations to don artie on the win, it was an amazing series and that portugal game was probably the best game i've seen in a long time(since kynesie on old aoe3).

I know a lot of top level players like to do just skirm goon wars and let best micro win and hate playing against defensive strategies and civs like port/inca but it is incredibly entertaining to watch and people really need to learn to adapt, im a total noob player but just don't understand why someone of kaisers level would make 30 goons against sweden(until age 4 when they get mams at least) that do practically nothing all game, all those resources could have been spent on something else that actually could have impacted the game.

[Dolan]

Was this streamed somewhere? I'm curious to see what this new turtling meta is. In what way is it different from or similar to Kynesie's classic turtle.

[Cometk]

Was this streamed somewhere? I'm curious to see what this new turtling meta is. In what way is it different from or similar to Kynesie's classic turtle.

here u are

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1039256199?t=00h32m25s

[Squamiger]

Congratulations to don artie on the win, it was an amazing series and that portugal game was probably the best game i've seen in a long time(since kynesie on old aoe3).

I know a lot of top level players like to do just skirm goon wars and let best micro win and hate playing against defensive strategies and civs like port/inca but it is incredibly entertaining to watch and people really need to learn to adapt, im a total noob player but just don't understand why someone of kaisers level would make 30 goons against sweden(until age 4 when they get mams at least) that do practically nothing all game, all those resources could have been spent on something else that actually could have impacted the game.

to be fair to kaiser, goons are not bad against Sweden. They are decent against caroleans when they have their range increase from the arsenal (until svea lifeguard at least), are fast moving units that can raid and respond to raids quickly, and they can counter artillery decently as well. I'm not sure I agree with Drongo's assessment that musk/skirm would have been the better choice. If youre going musk/skirm you probably also need to make culvs as well, and then you just have a slower, less responsive army. Kaiser is really good at skirm goon micro and I dont blame him for playing to his strengths, and the goons are definitely what you want vs. the mamelukes. Tbh I think France just probably struggles vs. Sweden because their main OP unit (cuirs) don't really do much vs a big mass of caroleans.

[lordraphael]

Congratulations to don artie on the win, it was an amazing series and that portugal game was probably the best game i've seen in a long time(since kynesie on old aoe3).

I know a lot of top level players like to do just skirm goon wars and let best micro win and hate playing against defensive strategies and civs like port/inca but it is incredibly entertaining to watch and people really need to learn to adapt, im a total noob player but just don't understand why someone of kaisers level would make 30 goons against sweden(until age 4 when they get mams at least) that do practically nothing all game, all those resources could have been spent on something else that actually could have impacted the game.

see this is hilarious. That porto game was just straight up bad. Not even saying anyone played bad, but completly uninteresting in terms of fights. Water fights are absolut garbage and army vs mm is boring as fuck aswell... and then it was over. How the hell was that interesting ?

[howlingwolfpaw]

Any link to a stream with Don A beating Kaiser.

I had to go back and watch what I missed... great games!

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1039256199

[Aussie_Drongo]

alright so i'm gonna comment on this I guess. Kaiser is a way better player than me, me winning this series hasn't changed that fact. If you think otherwise I would say that's a bit delusional. Right before we played this series kaiser just went 3-0 vs iamturk in the round1 match and i imagine he went into this series thinking 'alright i'm gonna play a shitter now, easy 3-0' Where as I prepared plans and strategies, trying to find an advantage elsewhere. It's pretty obvious to me that if i'm gonna give kaiser a fair fight with equal numbers on goon/skirms/cav etc he'll just win easily with his skill advantage. Some of you might feel like playing these 'fair' fights is the only right way to play the game, but I personally think the things I used in this series are an important part of the game. After all we're playing a strategy game, not a mechanic check game. And the thing with the strats I used, is that all of them can be countered. But kaiser just did his standard stuff, which can fall short. For example I prepared that dhaka strat a lot and I know what can counter it, but kaiser's plan doesnt counter it at all. To now instantly resort to 'oh this is lame, this should be nerfed' or whatever else, imo, just explore into counter-strats first instead of being so short minded. that's my 2 cents on this

Not long ago the same arguments were being used against Sweden (and they continue to be used by lesser players) but Kaiser has quite clearly demonstrated that he is able to clinically dismantle Sweden without making the game even look remotely close (5 howitzers btw lol). Perhaps in time for the next major tournament, he will adapt to these types of strategies and clinically dispose of them the same way he did to your Sweden this time around.

[JKProwler]

Congratulations to don artie on the win, it was an amazing series and that portugal game was probably the best game i've seen in a long time(since kynesie on old aoe3).

I know a lot of top level players like to do just skirm goon wars and let best micro win and hate playing against defensive strategies and civs like port/inca but it is incredibly entertaining to watch and people really need to learn to adapt, im a total noob player but just don't understand why someone of kaisers level would make 30 goons against sweden(until age 4 when they get mams at least) that do practically nothing all game, all those resources could have been spent on something else that actually could have impacted the game.

see this is hilarious. That porto game was just straight up bad. Not even saying anyone played bad, but completly uninteresting in terms of fights. Water fights are absolut garbage and army vs mm is boring as fuck aswell... and then it was over. How the hell was that interesting ?

Cause it was different to goon skirm combo that always inevitably happens. Variety is good.

Also it was hard to tell who was winning cause Kaiser had the mass and the land while opponent just had the water.

Also a couple of memorable moments that swung the game, like that pop and mortar taking out 3 cannons.

I don't get why Kaiser or ppl say this is not aoe3 when water has been used successfully many times previously

[Kaiserklein]

All this talk about semi-ff gang and whatever, kind of misses the point which that there's a new meta in aoe3. It's something that Khorix and Kynesie understood from day 1 in DE, but which has taken other top players a while to reckon with, which is that the most optimized strats are maximized around booming and walling as hard as you can, no matter what the map. This was sort of the case in EP, but in EP there were also balanced ways of countering this play. Falconet timings or rushes could break water or eco play. It doesn't seem like this is the case anymore at the highest levels, where the playstyle for water and walling has been super refined. It used to be that Kynesie seemed to have a magical way to surviving with walls and water, but now it feels almost standard to play this way when there is the opportunity to do so.

Kaiser losing to Don Artie really kind drove this home to me. Kaiser is an insane player but he just hasn't really adapted to the new meta, maybe just out of pride. This is unlike Don Artie who it seems like has put a lot of time into training these new builds that take full advantage of water, walls, and OP lategame techs. All the new up and coming players who have risen in ELO seem to also be players that take full advantage of this new way of playing.

I feel like the more this meta is adopted and accepted, the more civ balance will change. Some traditionally mid to high tier civs like haud, lakota, france, germany or china might fall lower and lower on the tier list, since they have fewer options to play this way, whereas even a civ like russia, which is normally considered bottom tier, might be considered higher since they have the capacity to play this way.

inb4 bramboy responds with a snarky comment telling me to gitgud and play the game more instead of posting about it. i am not a coward, i will never stop posting. what do people think, am I off the mark here? have all you pro players already guessed this ages ago in your top secret discord chats?

Yeah there is some pride in this, e.g not playing sweden because it's just stupid as fuck and I believe the civ should not exist.
Other than that it's just about playing the game a lot tbh. I think back when I was a top player I used to play the game about 10x more. I could beat water lame or heavy eco musk spams just fine because I outplayed. Turns out when you don't have the mechanics, you can't beat this kind of easier / lamer playstyle... Well, we knew that already, was the same story with sepoy cease fire, or port water which was always just very strong; you'd just have to outplay to beat it.
Now that I suck at the game, partly because of my comp and partly because I just have way less interest in the game, I lose. That's fine I guess

[JKProwler]

All this talk about semi-ff gang and whatever, kind of misses the point which that there's a new meta in aoe3. It's something that Khorix and Kynesie understood from day 1 in DE, but which has taken other top players a while to reckon with, which is that the most optimized strats are maximized around booming and walling as hard as you can, no matter what the map. This was sort of the case in EP, but in EP there were also balanced ways of countering this play. Falconet timings or rushes could break water or eco play. It doesn't seem like this is the case anymore at the highest levels, where the playstyle for water and walling has been super refined. It used to be that Kynesie seemed to have a magical way to surviving with walls and water, but now it feels almost standard to play this way when there is the opportunity to do so.

Kaiser losing to Don Artie really kind drove this home to me. Kaiser is an insane player but he just hasn't really adapted to the new meta, maybe just out of pride. This is unlike Don Artie who it seems like has put a lot of time into training these new builds that take full advantage of water, walls, and OP lategame techs. All the new up and coming players who have risen in ELO seem to also be players that take full advantage of this new way of playing.

I feel like the more this meta is adopted and accepted, the more civ balance will change. Some traditionally mid to high tier civs like haud, lakota, france, germany or china might fall lower and lower on the tier list, since they have fewer options to play this way, whereas even a civ like russia, which is normally considered bottom tier, might be considered higher since they have the capacity to play this way.

inb4 bramboy responds with a snarky comment telling me to gitgud and play the game more instead of posting about it. i am not a coward, i will never stop posting. what do people think, am I off the mark here? have all you pro players already guessed this ages ago in your top secret discord chats?

Yeah there is some pride in this, e.g not playing sweden because it's just stupid as fuck and I believe the civ should not exist.
Other than that it's just about playing the game a lot tbh. I think back when I was a top player I used to play the game about 10x more. I could beat water lame or heavy eco musk spams just fine because I outplayed. Turns out when you don't have the mechanics, you can't beat this kind of easier / lamer playstyle... Well, we knew that already, was the same story with sepoy cease fire, or port water which was always just very strong; you'd just have to outplay to beat it.
Now that I suck at the game, partly because of my comp and partly because I just have way less interest in the game, I lose. That's fine I guess

2 of the 3 games u lost were very winnable tbh even tho u were not in ur top game. Just too many mistakes by ur standards.

[Kaiserklein]

Gotta say something else though. @Hazza54321 apparently still bothers playing this game ;p and he's gonna smash everyone because he's good af + there's almost no one good left (unless @Mitoe also starts grinding the game, or @samwise12 somehow comes back). See I've been saying for months that I'm a trash player nowadays (though people wouldn't believe me for some reason... see now that I was right), but hazza somehow isn't. Can't wait to see the "new meta players" just get butt fucked, even if I couldn't do it myself like good ol' times haha.

[Kaiserklein]

2 of the 3 games u lost were very winnable tbh even tho u were not in ur top game. Just too many mistakes by ur standards.

Well I mean, 3 out of the 3 games I lost were extremely winnable, if I played by my old standards. Back when I wasn't a pr 35. Obviously now it's different

[don_artie]

Gotta say something else though. @Hazza54321 apparently still bothers playing this game ;p and he's gonna smash everyone because he's good af + there's almost no one good left (unless @Mitoe also starts grinding the game, or @samwise12 somehow comes back). See I've been saying for months that I'm a trash player nowadays (though people wouldn't believe me for some reason... see now that I was right), but hazza somehow isn't. Can't wait to see the "new meta players" just get butt fucked, even if I couldn't do it myself like good ol' times haha.

yea hazza is easily the best right now in my opnion. I can try using some 'lame' (lets just call it that to make it easier) strats to advance a little bit, but at some point there is only so much you can do where higher skill just wins. I don't see myself getting past quarters in this tournament or anything, just not good enough for that. maybe one day

2 of the 3 games u lost were very winnable tbh even tho u were not in ur top game. Just too many mistakes by ur standards.

Well I mean, 3 out of the 3 games I lost were extremely winnable, if I played by my old standards. Back when I wasn't a pr 35. Obviously now it's different

I think in both my losses I basically had no chance, the 11 vill russian age up caught me with my pants down and as soon as i shipped 700 wood i was fucked, and the swe-dutch one I also played wrong and was just lost quite early on. In terms of the 3 games I had won, I think the spain one wasn't close tbh, your strat just can't really win against it. Then the sagueny one was really close, I think you could even still have won when you resigned but I guess your mental broke losing those 3 falcs. and then in the last one i'm on a bit of a timer. reached the point in the game where my vills actually start to matter and i got raided, i'm on 1tc, you have stagecoach and cdb etc. If I don't find that good fight at the end there with the double carolean charge+ mams through the middle, I think I just lose. Like if i try to stabilize and ship factory's or something, pretty sure i'm just lost

[Kaiserklein]

Don studied more and won fair and square.. that is something that all players should be doing. Kind of like when Chess players prepare and study their opponent weeks in advance. The Dhaka game is a pure demonstration of that.. Kaiser is my favorite player but the thing is he should stop complaining about this not being AOE 3..

Well if you think getting CM (or some other strong age 1 card besides crates) + 400 res in the bank in 20 sec is anything like aoe3.. Idk what to tell you. Sure I could adapt to that kind of lame, but after 5 years of playing a game at high level, I really don't feel like learning this new game

[Kaiserklein]

yea hazza is easily the best right now in my opnion. I can try using some 'lame' (lets just call it that to make it easier) strats to advance a little bit, but at some point there is only so much you can do where higher skill just wins. I don't see myself getting past quarters in this tournament or anything, just not good enough for that. maybe one day

Yeah hazza won't just get lamed like me at this point. I think you saying "at some point higher skill just wins" shows a lot about the state of DE, where UNTIL some point, the lower skill can still win because of the variety of broken shite you can go for.
Hazza with the wider civ pool, and atm the sharper mechanics too, is definitely in a much better position to beat lamers.

I think in both my losses I basically had no chance, the 11 vill russian age up caught me with my pants down and as soon as i shipped 700 wood i was fucked, and the swe-dutch one I also played wrong and was just lost quite early on. In terms of the 3 games I had won, I think the spain one wasn't close tbh, your strat just can't really win against it. Then the sagueny one was really close, I think you could even still have won when you resigned but I guess your mental broke losing those 3 falcs. and then in the last one i'm on a bit of a timer. reached the point in the game where my vills actually start to matter and i got raided, i'm on 1tc, you have stagecoach and cdb etc. If I don't find that good fight at the end there with the double carolean charge+ mams through the middle, I think I just lose. Like if i try to stabilize and ship factory's or something, pretty sure i'm just lost

Nah, the spain mirror would have easily been a win if I shipped a frig instead of 5 useless lancers. I almost had your last dock down, and then your whole build would have become meaningless. No idea why I shipped lancers there.
On sag I just couldn't be bothered to play vs the stupid monitor lame, yeah I know it was winnable. Besides I was annoyed I didn't pay attention to CM / cav switch in time, and got batches of 1 musks out, instead of winning it early as I should have.
Last game is just sweden being a stupid civ really. Can only outplay so much against infinite mams and 30% rr 15 range musks. I could always have played it better than I did (like I would have 6 months ago, and thus would've won) but regardless it's super hard to outplay this lame.

[don_artie]

yea hazza is easily the best right now in my opnion. I can try using some 'lame' (lets just call it that to make it easier) strats to advance a little bit, but at some point there is only so much you can do where higher skill just wins. I don't see myself getting past quarters in this tournament or anything, just not good enough for that. maybe one day

Yeah hazza won't just get lamed like me at this point. I think you saying "at some point higher skill just wins" shows a lot about the state of DE, where UNTIL some point, the lower skill can still win because of the variety of broken shite you can go for.
Hazza with the wider civ pool, and atm the sharper mechanics too, is definitely in a much better position to beat lamers.

I think in both my losses I basically had no chance, the 11 vill russian age up caught me with my pants down and as soon as i shipped 700 wood i was fucked, and the swe-dutch one I also played wrong and was just lost quite early on. In terms of the 3 games I had won, I think the spain one wasn't close tbh, your strat just can't really win against it. Then the sagueny one was really close, I think you could even still have won when you resigned but I guess your mental broke losing those 3 falcs. and then in the last one i'm on a bit of a timer. reached the point in the game where my vills actually start to matter and i got raided, i'm on 1tc, you have stagecoach and cdb etc. If I don't find that good fight at the end there with the double carolean charge+ mams through the middle, I think I just lose. Like if i try to stabilize and ship factory's or something, pretty sure i'm just lost

Nah, the spain mirror would have easily been a win if I shipped a frig instead of 5 useless lancers. I almost had your last dock down, and then your whole build would have become meaningless. No idea why I shipped lancers there.
On sag I just couldn't be bothered to play vs the stupid monitor lame, yeah I know it was winnable. Besides I was annoyed I didn't pay attention to CM / cav switch in time, and got batches of 1 musks out, instead of winning it early as I should have.
Last game is just sweden being a stupid civ really. Can only outplay so much against infinite mams and 30% rr 15 range musks. I could always have played it better than I did (like I would have 6 months ago, and thus would've won) but regardless it's super hard to outplay this lame.

idk, I had plenty of space for more docks on the dhaka game and im also getting 2 frigs of my own. I just don't feel like that game was ever close. the other 2 for sure were, I just think game 1-3 not close, game 4/5 close the entire way. I think swe is definitly strong (especially the 6 mams & svea cards), but they are still quite beatable. not as dumb as they once were. probably wanna have 5-10 musk/halbs running around while keeping me contained. and I think towards the end if you realise on how much of a timer I am you can play a bit more passive and just win

[bobabu]

Gotta say something else though. @Hazza54321 still bothers playing this game ;p and he's gonna smash everyone because he's good at + there's almost no one good left (unless @Mitoe also starts grinding the game, or @samwise12 somehow comes back). See I've been saying for months that I'm a trash player nowadays (though people wouldn't believe me for some reason... see now that I was right) but has somehow isn't. Can't wait to see the "new meta players" just get butt fucked, even if I couldn't do it myself like good ol' times haha.

I don't know wtf you are talking about. You won the table topper 5:0 one month ago. You are just a bit lazy right now. There was no significant skill decay. Even I managed to win one game against you in a german mirror with a counter build. Just look at the new builds and adapt. If you can't figure them out ask someone to do it for you. Nobody has your surgeon hands currently. Ep just made smaller adjustments an d it was easier for the top players to stay on top as they mostly played against each other and developed the meta. Now random people develop the meta.

[Kaiserklein]

However, it is my humble opinion that Kaiser has not optimally adapted to the new DE features, such as the Spanish logistician and Sweden. This is understandable, seeing as Kaiser is not even close to his old form when he was winning every tournament. But it's not the end of the world. Kaiser has deserved his break and I hope we see him back in the future on a proper laptop to dominate the competition once again.

Yeah, pretty much this. I'm very frustrated about how sloppily I play in every aspect, while I used to play imo in a very clean way. Adapting to the meta is ofc a plus but tbh it's not needed, I've always played my civs and my own style and made it work. That was when I could still make it work.
I float 1000+ res every game and can't micro half as well as I used to, so you know..

[Scylla-x]

see this is hilarious. That porto game was just straight up bad. Not even saying anyone played bad, but completly uninteresting in terms of fights. Water fights are absolut garbage and army vs mm is boring as fuck aswell... and then it was over. How the hell was that interesting ?

Maybe to top level players its garbage, but to the average casual aoe3 fan it is very fun to watch. Water booms are always super popular among fans, especially in tournaments, obviously the highlight was the monitor shot on the 3 falcs. Maybe you think army vs mm is boring, but not everyone does, I thought it was incredibly funny to watch, not something you'd expect in global championships to see number 2 player being beat by just minutemen.

[Kaiserklein]

Gotta say something else though. @Hazza54321 still bothers playing this game ;p and he's gonna smash everyone because he's good at + there's almost no one good left (unless @Mitoe also starts grinding the game, or @samwise12 somehow comes back). See I've been saying for months that I'm a trash player nowadays (though people wouldn't believe me for some reason... see now that I was right) but has somehow isn't. Can't wait to see the "new meta players" just get butt fucked, even if I couldn't do it myself like good ol' times haha.

I don't know wtf you are talking about. You won the table topper 5:0 one month ago. You are just a bit lazy right now. There was no significant skill decay. Even I managed to win one game against you in a german mirror with a counter build. Just look at the new builds and adapt. If you can't figure them out ask someone to do it for you. Nobody has your surgeon hands currently. Ep just made smaller adjustments an d it was easier for the top players to stay on top as they mostly played against each other and developed the meta. Now random people develop the meta.

I can't even emphasize how far I am mechanically from my former self. Everything is sloppy nowadays while it used to be pretty sharp I think. "surgeon hands" maybe yeah, that's no longer the case. Maybe you can't see it as a viewer, but I can tell you I see it every single game myself.
I won table topper 5-0 because knusch underperformed and because, I'm sorry to say that because he's a good player... But he's not as good as hazza, or Mitoe on his good days, or raphael back when he played, etc.

Have you seen any of my games vs hazza recently? Cause he just bashes me. It used to be even between us, or possibly I'd be slightly favoured, now it's a bash.

[Kaiserklein]

You know, I'm just like Mitoe now. I can't play as well as I used to, most of the time. I can try to play smart and win some games, but I'm just not as top as I used to be. It's very frustrating.

I've known it for a while haha. I mean look at my games, I'm just raiding so much. Why do I raid so much? Because I know I won't win with my micro / macro anymore, and have no idea about strats either. It's not that raiding is bad, just I didn't need it before, and now I kind of rely on it. Maybe what I'm saying makes no sense to anyone, but to me it really does. Raiding should be a bonus for me, it shouldn't replace all of my mechanics.