This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Post by Hazza54321 »

ahaha esoc elo, so eaglemut, major dark and flontier are preseeded but erik, dicktator, king, irish and blackstar are all in qualifiers not a sufficient amount of EleGiggles can be required
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Djigit »

Yeah big names should already be qualified.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Garja »

Hazza54321 wrote:ahaha esoc elo, so eaglemut, major dark and flontier are preseeded but erik, dicktator, king, irish and blackstar are all in qualifiers not a sufficient amount of EleGiggles can be required

Those names havent played in forever. I dont see why they should get any preseed.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Post by SoldieR »

If the ladder is so easy to jump up, then those big names should be able to win 15 games in a row, unless they want to play through all the group stages...
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Djigit »

But what's the point of having top players who are barely rusty vs. newbies?
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Kaiserklein »

Best is probably a formula taking EP elo, RE elo, and past tourney results into account, at the same time. Then you should be able to seed everyone rather accurately.
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Post by deleted_user »

sounds like a job for a deep learning neural network
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Post by Garja »

Best is using this. As Soldier said, if someone is interested in getting seeded he will play on EP to get the spot.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Cometk »

Hazza54321 wrote:ahaha esoc elo, so eaglemut, major dark and flontier are preseeded but erik, dicktator, king, irish and blackstar are all in qualifiers not a sufficient amount of EleGiggles can be required

you've got six weeks boy-o
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:
umeu wrote:lol these 2!!! it's always the same. Garaja refuses to accept nuance. Jeruma insists to argue the extreme.
You're pretty great at refusing to accept nuance, too – and arguing the extreme to the extreme, come to think of it. How ironic and fittingly lacking in perspective, same as it ever was.


Oh the obsessive hater has returned!

Have you found those facts yet, or are you still making them up? Talk to me when you've found something!

Ps. You might want to see a doctor about this obsession. Everywhere you go you have to talk about or respond to me. It's getting stalker like features. Pretty scary, dude.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Best is using this. As Soldier said, if someone is interested in getting seeded he will play on EP to get the spot.

Trying to even get a game going takes ages. And who in their right mind would play a 1600 elo BSOP rated on the EP with the upcoming patch in mind? Right now if you have any decent rank its time to nitpick your opponents and spam eaglemut game invites and play unrated otherwise.

I think its naive to think that this announcement will truly rally people to play enough rated games to make this ladder function. Not within 6 weeks. It didnt reallt motivate people on jp ELO so I dont see how people will care this time. And then some unlucky fellas will have a group with bsop.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by BrookG »

Kaiserklein wrote:Best is probably a formula taking EP elo, RE elo, and past tourney results into account, at the same time. Then you should be able to seed everyone rather accurately.

Why not take the average of the EP and jp elo? Also, add to that a point system of past tourney. It's not hard to do.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Garja »

The point is to set the base line for future tourneys too. The switch had to be done since we have a much better rating system and JP elo is totally inaccurate at this point.
Past tourneys imo shouldn't influence the upcoming ones. We should give a chance to newer players to get a good seed based exclusively on their current performance.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by momuuu »

Imo itd be much better to take the sum of RE and EP games into account though. This feature is missing on the ladders anyways
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jap elo is more accurate than EP ladder atm because everybody is inactive.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by Garja »

RE games are meaningless, too much BS there. And JP elo is not accurate at all considering there is a mix of ranks from 2012 and on, with the impossibility to actually rank up to make it homogeneous.
As for inactivity it is true that atm AOE3 is quite inactive because of summer, but in the past couple months EP elo has been working much better nad now it is fairly accurate in fact.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:RE games are meaningless, too much BS there. And JP elo is not accurate at all considering there is a mix of ranks from 2012 and on, with the impossibility to actually rank up to make it homogeneous.
As for inactivity it is true that atm AOE3 is quite inactive because of summer, but in the past couple months EP elo has been working much better nad now it is fairly accurate in fact.

But an elo with players averaging 20 games is even bigger bullshit. @EAGLEMUT no offense but theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player yet elo claims so. What happened in eaglemut's case is living proof of my theory. He secretly improved a bit, then played many of his friends who were overrated compared to the pros (with the starting 1600 elo) and then by winning a lot of these games (because he improved and became a bit better than his friends) eaglemut entered the top20 region while not being a top20 player. He did it by accident, but it could also be done on purpose and if you have any desire to do as well as possible in the tournament you should try to use this glaringly obvious flaw of the current EP ELO ladders.

At this rate its seriously possible to have a top player like bsop in a group stage and eaglemut seeded, with the result that two RO32 games might be momuuu vs eaglemut and bsop vs h2o. No thank you, just give me the 'shitty' jap elo.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.
The average definetely isn't 20 games. Most of players played regularly on EP since the top10 has been added to the front page. In fact those who are active got their spot already. It seems to me you are under the impression the EP hasn't been played much when in fact the vast majority of pr30+ 1v1s have been played there.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by gibson »

Yea if you take away cheaters and ignore inactive players jap elo is still a pretty accurate representation of skill
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by gibson »

Garja wrote:Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.
see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Eaglemut got his elo when it was easier to rank up. Now it has already been misplaced by a lot without even playing. He did it "on purpose" as you say, but I don't know what's wrong with that. When
a system is new everyone is up to gain its rank. If bsop never played more than 6 games (I'm sure he doesnt in fact cares at all about AOE£ atm) why should he even been seeding or anything. The moment he decides to sign up is when he has to rank up if he wants a proper seed. Otherwise ye he will do group stage at the expenses of someone else.
The average definetely isn't 20 games. Most of players played regularly on EP since the top10 has been added to the front page. In fact those who are active got their spot already. It seems to me you are under the impression the EP hasn't been played much when in fact the vast majority of pr30+ 1v1s have been played there.

Well, if bsop wants to sign up, it's obvious he shouldn't have to go through group stages because then top players will get eliminated in RO32/16 which makes no sense. Honestly, it's like allowing smurfing lol. Why would one smurf a tourney now, when all you have to do is stop playing for a while to get a captain group.

Also, who would play vs a 1600 elo bsop? People don't want to waste elo points, especially if it matters for the tournaments, so everybody would just dodge him.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

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gibson wrote:see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

It doesnt actually matter what he's worth if he hasn't played. Using EP elo is in the first place a way to encourage playing. You have to work your rank up if you want the seed. In fact there should be a rule of min games played to qualify no matter what rank. Like if you only played < 10 games in the last month you should not be eligible for seeding (see it as inactive status).
gibson wrote:Yea if you take away cheaters and ignore inactive players jap elo is still a pretty accurate representation of skill

In the first 40 positions maybe. But EP elo is more accurate in the same range and more importantly it is workable. JP elo has a mix of heterogeneous values even in the top 20. Just compare current rating with max ratings. Some players just kept the old max rating by stopping playing, others totally blew it off by playing without caring at all. And it is simply unfair that someone can play just one game to get the active status again.
Your seeding score shouldn't be set in stone, but should be something verified before every tourney.
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, if bsop wants to sign up, it's obvious he shouldn't have to go through group stages because then top players will get eliminated in RO32/16 which makes no sense. Honestly, it's like allowing smurfing lol. Why would one smurf a tourney now, when all you have to do is stop playing for a while to get a captain group.

Also, who would play vs a 1600 elo bsop? People don't want to waste elo points, especially if it matters for the tournaments, so everybody would just dodge him.

It's not obvious. On one hand there is the interest of getting accurate seedings, on the other there is the interest of players getting what they worked for. There is no reason why he should be allowed to skip the seeding process just because he's BSOP.
Honestly if one player gets kicked out at ro32 that's the price for switching to a newer and better seeding method. It is a long term investment. Thing is tourney matches should also influence your ELO, like in any other game, so the same situation doesn't happen again in the next tourney.
Also about the dodging thing, it's his problem. He should have played more at the beginning if he wanted a better rank. Also it is the reason why the system should use QS for rated games.
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by gibson »

Yea I mean if you ignore the fact that on jp elo he has 2 accounts in the top 5 all time in 1v1 (cheaters and point traders ignored) and if you ignore the fact that he's a previous tourney winner and an undisputed top player in the game there really isnt a reason to seed him is there? Cause tourney seeding should be all about how active a player is and not about their skill level. I understand now, thank you for clearing that up!
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by flontier »

Pre-seeded at least previous winner / finalist of all the old esoc tournaments is the most reasonable things to do to avoid bad surprise in the bracket. I think nobody can contest the legit place of all these previous winner and finalist in a final bracket, even with one-year without playing bsop or another old winner would rekt 95% of the player here.

The others, they must fight for their rankings to win their place!
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Re: This Year's Autumn Tournament Will Use EP ELO

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
gibson wrote:see that's just dumb. Bsop could not play the game for a year and he's still easily a top 16 player, which is clearly shown by jap elo. If you go by stupid ep elo he obviously has the standard 1600 which is a obviously not a representation of his skill.

It doesnt actually matter what he's worth if he hasn't played. Using EP elo is in the first place a way to encourage playing. You have to work your rank up if you want the seed. In fact there should be a rule of min games played to qualify no matter what rank. Like if you only played < 10 games in the last month you should not be eligible for seeding (see it as inactive status).
Well that's totally dumb. Isn't the goal of a tourney to create activity. The experience of the 2 last years has showed that activity increases dramatically during tournaments, and some players such as blackstar_op or goongoon don't play outstide tournaments, but still practice when they need to, ie in the late rounds of tournaments.
gibson wrote:Yea if you take away cheaters and ignore inactive players jap elo is still a pretty accurate representation of skill

In the first 40 positions maybe.
Well jap elo is more accurate in the first 40 positions, which is all we need since we only preseed 40 players.
But EP elo is more accurate in the same range and more importantly it is workable.
No it is not. Eaglemut is top20 while bsop and me (even though I'm not going to play) aren't. How exactly is it more accurate?
JP elo has a mix of heterogeneous values even in the top 20. Just compare current rating with max ratings. Some players just kept the old max rating by stopping playing, others totally blew it off by playing without caring at all. And it is simply unfair that someone can play just one game to get the active status again.
That's why the best indicator is tournaments results. Besides, because of the formula it's actually easier to improve your jap elo from inactive player to your current level, than to improve it from scratch. One would need like 50 games to get pre-seeded which doesn't make a lot of sense if he's won a tournament before.
Your seeding score shouldn't be set in stone, but should be something verified before every tourney.
Well it is, thanks to previous tourneys.
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well, if bsop wants to sign up, it's obvious he shouldn't have to go through group stages because then top players will get eliminated in RO32/16 which makes no sense. Honestly, it's like allowing smurfing lol. Why would one smurf a tourney now, when all you have to do is stop playing for a while to get a captain group.

Also, who would play vs a 1600 elo bsop? People don't want to waste elo points, especially if it matters for the tournaments, so everybody would just dodge him.

It's not obvious. On one hand there is the interest of getting accurate seedings, on the other there is the interest of players getting what they worked for.
Accurate seedings is the only thing that matters. A tournament's goal is to find out who's the best. And what does "what they worked for" even mean lol? If you've practiced a lot, you're going to be in a good shape, and have good strats prepared. We're not in a MMORPG where the guy who's the most active wins even if he sucks.
There is no reason why he should be allowed to skip the seeding process just because he's BSOP.
Well, he might be the best player according to tourney results, so there is definitely a reason.
Honestly if one player gets kicked out at ro32 that's the price for switching to a newer and better seeding method.
The point being that it is neither a newer, nor a better seeding method. So you're basically paying a price for nothing.
It is a long term investment. Thing is tourney matches should also influence your ELO, like in any other game, so the same situation doesn't happen again in the next tourney.
What? Tourney matches should influence your ELO? WTF? Besides, in other games (such as sc2), previous winners of tournaments don't have to qualify (think of sc2 with the blizzcon)
Also about the dodging thing, it's his problem. He should have played more at the beginning if he wanted a better rank. Also it is the reason why the system should use QS for rated games.

Anyway, as usual your opinion doesn't make sense, and you show again that you're not capable of thinking in a reasonable way.

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