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France Lecastete
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02 Dec 2019, 17:20

somppukunkku wrote:
Lecastete wrote:Bwinner tower ff 8 jans 2 falcs 1kwood 3 tc

Game: All of them


You've got the more agressive approach with 8 jans 2 falcs 1k coin 4 mams sometimes
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Why bow pike when can pike pike - Aiz

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France bwinner
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02 Dec 2019, 17:23

Lecastete wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:
Lecastete wrote:Bwinner tower ff 8 jans 2 falcs 1kwood 3 tc

Game: All of them


You've got the more agressive approach with 8 jans 2 falcs 1k coin 4 mams sometimes

Don't forget when I feel crazy creativ, I switch 2 falcs and 8 jans!
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No Flag Superfly47
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03 Dec 2019, 02:40

At the end of the month we could do the same post for strategy of the decade.
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Canada Mitoe
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03 Dec 2019, 06:26

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Are some people really saying ryan wasn't creative lol

I don't think he was very creative.

Eh?

He created the Japan mirror late double build, and the counter build to it with the bank, that won him WCG 2008. In the early days of TAD I think he and Samwise were the only ones doing the Porcelain tower FF as well, a build that he later did in 2015 completely against the meta Confucian build when literally no one was doing Porcelain Tower.

When he came back to AoE3 in 2015 the entire meta changed because of him. The meta was full of people just doing random Colonial builds, musk/huss, dual rax bow/pike, 10/10 sepoy rushes, etc. It was not a very greedy or tech-oriented meta at all. Then H2O came back and started doing eco India vs literally everything, holding rushes and timings with virtually no units, and then started doing it with other civs. People just started copying this because they couldn't beat it. The only person who was as far ahead of the meta as him at the time was BlackStar.

There was a time in here where he was literally doing a semi-FF with Russia every single game (for real, who does that?)

Not to mention how all of the Spanish/Portuguese ATP builds were virtually non-existent until he started doing them. Although, I guess to be fair the Spanish ATP build was not unheard of on Vanilla, and Ryan was probably familiar with it from that.

Or what about the India Howdah FF build?

Ryan was known as a very standard player--almost to a fault--but what people fail to realize is that standard play became standard because of him. I think it's unfair to say that he wasn't creative just because he preferred to play safe and didn't go for crazy cheese or gimmicks in most of his games.
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Holy See bepsi
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03 Dec 2019, 08:06

Not to rain on your parade but the new meta you're referring to evolved because a new map pool (with way more resources and TPs) was adopted for competitive play, not because of an individual stroke of genius. H2O didn't do all greedy builds back in the PK tournament which was played exclusively on RE maps.
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Canada Mitoe
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03 Dec 2019, 08:29

bepsi wrote:Not to rain on your parade but the new meta you're referring to evolved because a new map pool (with way more resources and TPs) was adopted for competitive play, not because of an individual stroke of genius. H2O didn't do all greedy builds back in the PK tournament which was played exclusively on RE maps.

He also didn't really play civs other than Iro or Otto in the PK tournament because everything else was garbage in comparison, and doing something other than rush/contain with Iro was kinda trolling at the time.

In any case, while you're not wrong I don't really feel that fits. Yes the meta developed into those playstyles because of the higher resource maps, but the meta doesn't develop from maps it develops from players. You could throw 10,000 bison at great plains and if players still choose to rush then that's the meta, regardless of whether they have 50,000 additional food in their base or not. Who were the players getting copied the most? H2O was undoubtedly one of them.


On a slightly more unimportant note, I don't think I would describe H2O's playstyle as greedy. H2O is safe; his decisions are based on what is the "correct" thing to do (whatever gives you the best chance of winning). If it is "correct" to boom then he will boom, but you will also not catch him doing something like sending a second villager shipment basically ever unless he's tested it to ensure it works.
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Holy See bepsi
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03 Dec 2019, 08:56

Don't get my wrong, as much as I love H2O's playstyle I just don't consider him a build order maestro or creative genius by any stretch. The key to his greatness was essentially flawless mechanics (allowing him to get away with greed), perfect scouting and a sheer will to win.
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France Kaiserklein
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03 Dec 2019, 10:14

Nah strategy was also a big part of his success. Not just mechanics. I think Mitoe brought enough examples of cool strats he came up with.

Besides, the maps argument is just wrong. Sure, ep maps help you playing greedier and so on. But then how come the current meta isn't like that anymore? Back when ryan played, the meta for india would be greedy gurkha zamb. Now it's just sepoy stuff and hope your opponent sucks. Same as japan, now the jap meta isn't as greedy as before. I'm pretty sure that's partly due to him not playing anymore.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Finland somppukunkku
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03 Dec 2019, 14:30

Agreed to mostly what Kaiser wrote but the last sentences were bs. With india it's rather sepoy-cease meta that made the change. And people realized india eco snowballs like shit so trading is good. Same story with japs, also walls were nerfed a lot.

Some still play passive builds but h2o has nothing to do with that.
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Canada vividlyplain
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03 Dec 2019, 14:37

Lest we forget triple stable lancers.
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France Kaiserklein
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03 Dec 2019, 15:46

somppukunkku wrote:Agreed to mostly what Kaiser wrote but the last sentences were bs. With india it's rather sepoy-cease meta that made the change. And people realized india eco snowballs like shit so trading is good. Same story with japs, also walls were nerfed a lot.

Some still play passive builds but h2o has nothing to do with that.

I mean, people used to spam sepoy before the cease fire thing. On RE, every india lamer in qs just goes sepoy. The point is that on EP, when ryan was playing, the meta was more about gurkha zamb stuff (even though sepoys still had 190 hp). Not saying ryan created that meta, but he surely contributed to it. Same for japs, I'm quite sure kami was considered the standard shipment partly because of ryan's japan style.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Greece BrookG
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03 Dec 2019, 17:05

Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Agreed to mostly what Kaiser wrote but the last sentences were bs. With india it's rather sepoy-cease meta that made the change. And people realized india eco snowballs like shit so trading is good. Same story with japs, also walls were nerfed a lot.

Some still play passive builds but h2o has nothing to do with that.

I mean, people used to spam sepoy before the cease fire thing. On RE, every india lamer in qs just goes sepoy. The point is that on EP, when ryan was playing, the meta was more about gurkha zamb stuff (even though sepoys still had 190 hp). Not saying ryan created that meta, but he surely contributed to it. Same for japs, I'm quite sure kami was considered the standard shipment partly because of ryan's japan style.

On lower levels, like mine, I used to send kami in every MU. This mistake obviously wasn't only mine but of many others with similar level. Japan can barely stand early pressure if you don't have the skill/micro to deal with it if you do kami first. Ryan's builds did influence a lot. But indeed, meta isn't defined by a single build or a person.
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No Flag Zutazuta
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03 Dec 2019, 17:55

Can someone please do a write up of the build @Victor_swe used when he lost to that corporal in the agesanc tour. Even if we don’t get to vote on it, it would be hilarious.
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No Flag Zutazuta
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zuta
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03 Dec 2019, 17:57

Didn’t realize I interrupted PencilPowa flame sess. Carry on.
No Flag harcha
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03 Dec 2019, 18:12

Zutazuta wrote:Can someone please do a write up of the build @Victor_swe used when he lost to that corporal in the agesanc tour. Even if we don’t get to vote on it, it would be hilarious.

grandpa, you're late again! please let the kids have fun and don't disrupt the nice evening with your war stories about koreans
Great Britain Hazza54321
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03 Dec 2019, 18:16

Ryan would also go greedy when sometimes being aggressive is a safer way to win and i see that with him alot
Sweden Victor_swe
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03 Dec 2019, 18:29

:love: Pencilpower :love:
Dead hunts cant walk....
Or backherd!
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China Zeke
Crossbow
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Location: China

04 Dec 2019, 00:26

I guess the Kami build for Japan isn't from H2O, his Japanese build is rather kami-600-4-4, as the Kami build is used by almost all players.
But still, that game between H2O's india and Darwin on GP is such amazing and leaves a lasting impression on the history
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France Kaiserklein
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04 Dec 2019, 02:04

I think it's H2O who started building the port consulate in age 1, but I might very well be wrong
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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