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Great Britain chris1089
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19 Nov 2020, 12:52

I disagree that raiding the Russian player when he is all in would be ineffective. It hurts his mass since you idle his economy.
Chrising is turking except you win.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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19 Nov 2020, 13:16

There should be a ranked 1v1 KotH queue tbh, at the very least.
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Canada Eadrielas
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19 Nov 2020, 15:47

I appreciate this discussion being had about KOTH here in the forums, and I'm glad people are talking about the competitiveness and fun of the mode.

On the subject that is most contentious in the game. . . when it comes to our casual games on my stream, as someone previously stated, the rules that we created are more to hamper the better players among our friend group, ie me and ZHanson, from just dominating every game when we have a wide variety of skill with the players in our games. Raiding is usually a deciding factor between strong players and weaker players, especially when the final objective is to hold the hill, rather than destroy someone's base. Understand however, that the object of those games is not to be super competitive, but more fun. We like to encourage more niche strategies, with less optimization because it's fun and exciting for us.

I do however, agree with the argument around raiding in a competitive setting. We've been talking about the potential for a KOTH tournament with a legit prize pool. And should we run one, those kinds of rules to level the playing field couldn't exist, as removing the ability to raid, and attack bases removes a competitive aspect to the game. Yes, the tierlist would change under those circumstances, understandable. I also am under the assumption, that as a viewer of a tournament for KOTH, raiding would make the game more exciting to watch. The earlier parts of the game would be more engaging should it be allowed.

A lot of time has been spent discussing Germany when it comes to raiding. I would agree that their position would change a lot on the list should raiding be allowed. We've talked at lengths on the stream as to why that would be the case. However, it's not just them that can raid, and it doesn't change the concerns we have for the faction in KOTH. I would say that the faction that actually benefits the most from allowing raiding is the Inca. Not that I'm biased or anything. . . but a large part of why they were put at B tier is because their strength is found in their chimu runners. Even without raiding, they're still strong, but if they were allowed to raid, they would most likely catapult the civilization to near the top of the tierlist instantaneously.
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United States of America Taveron
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19 Nov 2020, 19:40

I think at this time the point of allowing no raiding and too much outwardly aggression is to try and bring in newer players to the game mode. Often times when we host larger lobbies it is comprised of newer players who are not looking for that competitive environment. While I personally am a huge fan of allowing raiding etc. (Zhanson and I raid each as it is) I understand why we do not do it. We would like to have some more skilled players join us though so we are looking for players who would be interested in joining some KOTH games. I know I also like the idea of a KOTH tournament if we can garner enough interest though to do so we would need to have the spectator option remedied.
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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
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19 Nov 2020, 23:25

I think we need to lobby Microsoft to include a variable timer to KOTH, and to male the fort un-deletable. Also ships should not be able to hold the fort.


One of the major downsides to it in RE was the timer was always fixed for as many players there were, so a large game people only needed to hold the fort for like 3-4 minutes. With that I have won with no vil fast age ups with lakota and sent only units and it captures the hill so fast people barely had a chance to make anything. Sometimes though that would not work and was really hard to catch up though so I do not recommend it. Some really interesting strats could be made from games where you needed to hold the fort for more time, even extreme amounts of time so that it makes holding the map and defending ones base part of the strategy too.

Deleting the fort should just not be.... unless it resets the persons timer who did it, and the fort auto spawns someplace else, but that would have obvious balance issues. (maybe it could reappear after 3 minutes)

Ships should not be able to hold the fort because they are water units and the fort is a land building. Preference should go to what land units are around it. , on maps like New England sending ships to the coast is just too OP.




I think where I am confused with this no raiding thing is where do you draw the line, are forward bases and contested/shared hunts fair game?

Also what maps do you guys prefer for the best KOTH? or ones not suitable. Great plains was always a favorite, and I think ceylon might be fun too. Which ones have funky fort placements?
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Great Britain chris1089
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19 Nov 2020, 23:27

You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.
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No Flag Zhanson10
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20 Nov 2020, 00:10

chris1089 wrote:You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.

The game doesn't offer the option to set the timer, do you know if it might be possible to turn it into a custom scenario with custom options?
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20 Nov 2020, 00:15

howlingwolfpaw wrote:I think where I am confused with this no raiding thing is where do you draw the line, are forward bases and contested/shared hunts fair game?

That's a bit of gray area, but the gentleman's agreement is do not go out of your way to hurt your opponents eco unless they're encroaching upon your slice of land.
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Australia wardyb1
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20 Nov 2020, 00:16

chris1089 wrote:You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.

Timer is based on the number of people in the game. Less people = longer timer
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
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20 Nov 2020, 00:17

howlingwolfpaw wrote: Also what maps do you guys prefer for the best KOTH? or ones not suitable. Great plains was always a favorite, and I think ceylon might be fun too. Which ones have funky fort placements?

We have tested several maps, and our current favorites are Mexico with a balanced trade route line and fort in the center, Dakota with good res and 4 trade posts through the center, and Gran Chaco which is perhaps the most balanced map though it lacks a trade route. Great Plains is still as good as ever but we've overplayed it to death on RE.
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Canada Wo1olo
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20 Nov 2020, 00:32

As I mentioned earlier, the timer is one of the biggest differences between a supremacy game and KOTH. It creates a sense of urgency and an objective to fight over, both of which are badly lacking in FFA games. I'd love to be able to customize the timer to shake up our meta (which right now is ranged infantry + artillery, and barely contesting the point until your boom comes online). Right now revolts and fast industrial are viable in our meta because the timer is sometimes just one or two minutes too long for a rush or FF to really hold it. With a bit of theorycrafting and clever play, I could see players in our group starting to rush more and try to hold the point, especially with a low timer.

Mexico is nearly the best, but it would require a better way to tag the fort. Right now it only allows the fort to change hands when units are standing in a very specific spot on one side of the fort. It can be very frustrating to have to go to the other side of the hill to hold it. Leaves you vulnerable to being sandwiched or pinned.

Dakota is often cramped and has led to players being choked out and fighting over limited space near the fort for their forward bases. If someone builds too close to the fort, our gentleman's agreement allows players to destroy encroaching buildings (so don't put forts, outposts/blockhouses or the agra fort too close). The cliffs on Dakota are a bit problematic but it does have a trade route. The mines and hunts aren't entirely balanced either.

Gran Chaco is pretty balanced and spacious so we've started playing it more than others. It just doesn't have a trade route. The ponds can make it a little awkward to place buildings but it's not bad.

Florida is kind of similar to Gran Chaco, with a bit less space for buildings, and sometimes pathing issues.

Ceylon really favours water booms and ends up being more about a naval economy than naval combat.

Great Lakes (summer) would be good if you couldn't just stick artillery on the island where the fort spawns, in the middle. If you actually had to do naval fighting over the fort, it would be perfect for a naval KOTH.

Great Plains isn't always entirely balanced but it's a classic that we've played to death, as Zhanson mentioned.

I'll also chime in again and say that we would like to have some more skilled players to join us. Most rando players don't contest the hill very well, and tend to treat it like a supremacy game (walling in and attacking players instead of the point). If we can have games where most players are around the same skill, raiding could probably be reinstated in those games. It's just with an imbalance that we don't want it...that way everyone has fun with the mode.
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Great Britain chris1089
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20 Nov 2020, 09:08

Zhanson10 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.

The game doesn't offer the option to set the timer, do you know if it might be possible to turn it into a custom scenario with custom options?

I was referring to howling wolf paw's post above my own. @wardyb1
Idk if it's possible, but I'd imagine so. Might need some technical expertise though.
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Australia wardyb1
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20 Nov 2020, 09:24

chris1089 wrote:
Zhanson10 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.

The game doesn't offer the option to set the timer, do you know if it might be possible to turn it into a custom scenario with custom options?

I was referring to howling wolf paw's post above my own. @wardyb1
Idk if it's possible, but I'd imagine so. Might need some technical expertise though.

Oh apologies. I saw his wall of text and didn't really bother reading it.
“To love the journey is to accept no such end. I have found, through painful experience, that the most important step a person can take is always the next one.”
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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20 Nov 2020, 09:39

howlingwolfpaw wrote:I think we need to lobby Microsoft to include a variable timer to KOTH, and to male the fort un-deletable.

Deleting the fort should just not be.... unless it resets the persons timer who did it, and the fort auto spawns someplace else, but that would have obvious balance issues. (maybe it could reappear after 3 minutes)

I've already fixed that on EP (made fort undeletable), and that change was ported to DE.

Zhanson10 wrote:
chris1089 wrote:You need to be careful of making the timer too long. At that point it just becomes a normal supremacy game.

The game doesn't offer the option to set the timer, do you know if it might be possible to turn it into a custom scenario with custom options?

Scenarios would be far inferior to the official game mode, I wouldn't even explore that (static map, no ability to choose civs/decks...).
It should be possible to create a mod with different timer than normal, but everyone would need to get the mod, so that's also kinda awkward.
Really if there is demand for a possibility to set timer when hosting, go to the official forums and tell Microsoft.
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European Union scarm
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20 Nov 2020, 09:47

Imagine having an actively developed game with official support instead of having to make MVPs like the mut, garja and all the other contributors to fix the game.

oh wait :hmm:
No Flag Zhanson10
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21 Nov 2020, 03:59

EAGLEMUT wrote:Scenarios would be far inferior to the official game mode, I wouldn't even explore that (static map, no ability to choose civs/decks...).
It should be possible to create a mod with different timer than normal, but everyone would need to get the mod, so that's also kinda awkward.
Really if there is demand for a possibility to set timer when hosting, go to the official forums and tell Microsoft.

Is it currently possible to create new random maps that can be loaded in the KOTH gamemode? I have no idea how to create map scripts unfortunately
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Canada vividlyplain
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21 Nov 2020, 04:22

Zhanson10 wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:Scenarios would be far inferior to the official game mode, I wouldn't even explore that (static map, no ability to choose civs/decks...).
It should be possible to create a mod with different timer than normal, but everyone would need to get the mod, so that's also kinda awkward.
Really if there is demand for a possibility to set timer when hosting, go to the official forums and tell Microsoft.

Is it currently possible to create new random maps that can be loaded in the KOTH gamemode? I have no idea how to create map scripts unfortunately

Yes. Check out the maps I’ve made if you want to try custom maps that work with KOTH. Link to my google drive is in my signature.
No Flag Zhanson10
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21 Nov 2020, 13:03

vividlyplain wrote:Yes. Check out the maps I’ve made if you want to try custom maps that work with KOTH. Link to my google drive is in my signature.

I downloaded your maps and placed them in steamapps/common/AoE3DE/game/RandMaps. I am unable to find them in the game. What did i do wrong?
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Canada vividlyplain
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21 Nov 2020, 13:09

Zhanson10 wrote:
vividlyplain wrote:Yes. Check out the maps I’ve made if you want to try custom maps that work with KOTH. Link to my google drive is in my signature.

I downloaded your maps and placed them in steamapps/common/AoE3DE/game/RandMaps. I am unable to find them in the game. What did i do wrong?

That’s the wrong folder. Delete those map files and reinstall in the correct file. View the read me file for the correct pathway.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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22 Nov 2020, 16:32

Gone ahead and made a thread proposing ranked KotH myself. You can chime in with more thoughts if you like: https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/add-king-of-the-hill-option-to-ranked/109190
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