An Essay on Herding

No Flag greatscythe11
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An Essay on Herding

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Post by greatscythe11 »

Hello guys, I am a PR 26.03 lvl player but really its just a number, I am no pro, not even remotely close, being honest.Have been using the ESOC forums for a long time(started playing in late 2015)Just felt it would only be fair if I could offer any contributions from my side.Herding, I've felt, is a topic that hasn't been discussed in sufficient detail.Just wanted to share some ideas of mine regarding this simple but arguably complex aspect of AOE3. Please feel free to offer your suggestions for improvements, criticisms, any necessary corrections as well as any other observations you want to share.The attached files are both in word and pdf so if someone wants to take it forward thats also fine by me.
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United States of America SamuraiRevolution
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by SamuraiRevolution »

Wow. This is very in depth, and I will definitely look more into this tomorrow! Great work
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by rickytickitembo »

Very in depth write up!

Not sure if a typo or I'm reading it wrong:
"Medium range herd (Just my terminology): The herd moves with least deviation if shot from a distance that ranges between point blank range(3 paces from the animal maybe) and maximum range (12).
Max range herd (Again my terminology): The herd moves with least deviation if shot from the max range (12)."

You mention moves with "least deviation" for both examples.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by greatscythe11 »

rickytickitembo wrote:Very in depth write up!

Not sure if a typo or I'm reading it wrong:
"Medium range herd (Just my terminology): The herd moves with least deviation if shot from a distance that ranges between point blank range(3 paces from the animal maybe) and maximum range (12).
Max range herd (Again my terminology): The herd moves with least deviation if shot from the max range (12)."

You mention moves with "least deviation" for both examples.


Ok, what i wanted to mean was that each herd is one of these two types(except maybe the starting herds of asian maps but individual animals still follow the rule).You can try shooting any herd( that moves) from max (12) range and intermediate(medium) range.If the max range shot gives the straighter movement, the herd is a max range herd and you can keep exploiting the max range to get maximum out of your herding shot.Same goes for medium range herd.You can check this out offline.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by ListlessSalmon »

Damn, he's more than a 10 skirm 5 dopp 4 falc + free uhlan deathball build :ohmy:

Nice guide sir, very thorough, thanks :smile:.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by lemmings121 »

nice, thanks :)
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by Zhanson10 »

Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.

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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by Ashvin »

good job scythe :flowers:
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by agrondergermane »

Zhanson10 wrote:Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.

in nearly every thread ur annoying. plz just stfu or say something substantial for the community. thx greatscythe! :)
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by NekoBerk »

Zhanson10 wrote:Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.


Ban this guy :P
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Re: An Essay on Herding

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Post by Challenger_Marco »

greatscythe11 wrote: Please feel free to offer your suggestions for improvements, criticisms, any necessary corrections as well as any other observations you want to share.The attached files are both in word and pdf so if someone wants to take it forward thats also fine by me.

Really Nice content! ,I would like to add some points here:
Its easy to detect back herds , How?
Well, you can detect them by the number of shots u fired for herding , take any herding animal (probably vanilla animals) eg , take a herd of Bison , so from the origin you herd it , it takes 8 shots to reach the maximum distance , no matter what the animal all have the same mechanics ( 8 shots) remember that one ,you can try this when playing offline pick a animal u want to herd and at the 8th shot you reached the maximum distance that the herd can go , beyond that back herd happens ie at the 9th shot , so now if you keep in mind the no of shots u fired by the vill u can probably predict when will the back herd will occur , even Rikikipu tested the back herd mechanics , check this tested by Rikikipu https://www.twitch.tv/videos/40655733 . So from seeing the video , you can see that bison can go as far as 80m and after that u shoot , the bisons retreats comes back to 60m , well 10m = 1 shot , if you shoot once the bison will move 10m , so when back herd happens u loose 2 shots and again u have to shoot it 2 times to bring back at the max distance. So this is in case of Bison , in case of other animals this is not the same , it depends on the animal , the fact is
more the Animals & food more distance it can go and vice-versa . So in that video if you check the distance covered by the deer it doesn't go as far as the bison , why? which is explained above . Still not satisfied? you can test them by yourself in scenario or playing vs comp.Well you can anticipate the maximum distance the herd can go only from the origin/epicentre if you herd the animal like at the 15th min , the herd would have probably moved from the origin so you guess the back herd at like 7th or like the 8th shot.Hope u understood the herding mechanics.
When to herd? Which animal should i herd first in the map ,were there are more than 1 type of animal?
This doubt will be in your head right? For this lets take a simple example , so if you are playing on great plains map , there are 2 types of animals viz deer, bison.Many will tend to rely on the bison and herd the bison than the deer? but why? so many may simply don't know the reason and just do it since everyone does it , so for those this would help , So imagine a situation where there are 2 animals on the left and right side of the map at a considerable distance ,where you can herd them towards your town centre , which one will you go first? In this situation we are taking that both the herds are the at the same distance from the tc , you must probably hunt the bison one because , it has more food and it can go to far distances since it has more food and the no of animals is more it will go far then the deer,that's why you wanna herd that first after that the deer , herding bison will give you more food and maximize the efficiency of your vills gathering and reduce your vills secs preventing less walking.So this applies for all the animals in the game.
It doesn't work for animals like elephant , tad animals, one of the reasons could be like for elephant there wont be like 10 elephants probably like 2-3 so it wont go far will move just a bit , why? In order to move your herds to max distance and bring near your tc you need 2 see 2 things:
1)Quantity of the animal ie is it large in no or not.
2)The amount of food it contains.
If these conditions satisfy then your herd will move faster and reach the max distance easily , otherwise they do not.
Ok now there are 2 methods to find when the back herd is gonna happen and the max distance a animal can travel ,one as the author of this post mentioned which is nice, 2nd by me i think many good players know this ,for players who don't know this ,this will be helpful , which one to follow? you can follow anything which suits you the best ,if you can remember the no of shots u fired with ur vill great! you can follow the concept i mentioned above else go with the author's concept.
I think i have give you ample of examples here for you guys to understand the concept , if you feel something is wrong or incorrect please tell me in the comment below , share your thoughts , and i by no means a pro , this is the knowledge i have & i wanted to share it here , hope it is clear and helpful , any doubts regarding this is always welcomed ,feel free to ask me.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by pecelot »

Image
How would you call that? :hmm:
:biggrin:
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Re: An Essay on Herding

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Post by EAGLEMUT »

pecelot wrote:Image
How would you call that? :hmm:

ErikHerden
Image
momuuu wrote:theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by yemshi »

pecelot wrote:Image
How would you call that? :hmm:

Great.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by Challenger_Marco »

pecelot wrote:Image
How would you call that? :hmm:

TripleH , H for hunts.
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No Flag greatscythe11
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by greatscythe11 »

Thank u guys for all ur support.Wish the community can reap at least some benefit from the write up.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by greatscythe11 »

Zhanson10 wrote:Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.

User was warned for this post.


My apologies bro, it was a while back i think.I was still learning my german bo and had troubles with rushes. Also, I play with sound off(something in my place) so my game play is a little limited.Wish u would understand.Wish u all the best.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

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Post by gibson »

pecelot wrote:Image
How would you call that? :hmm:
is this vanestolivov plains?
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by greatscythe11 »

Challenger_Marco wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote: Please feel free to offer your suggestions for improvements, criticisms, any necessary corrections as well as any other observations you want to share.The attached files are both in word and pdf so if someone wants to take it forward thats also fine by me.

Really Nice content! ,I would like to add some points here:
Its easy to detect back herds , How?
Well, you can detect them by the number of shots u fired for herding , take any herding animal (probably vanilla animals) eg , take a herd of Bison , so from the origin you herd it , it takes 8 shots to reach the maximum distance , no matter what the animal all have the same mechanics ( 8 shots) remember that one ,you can try this when playing offline pick a animal u want to herd and at the 8th shot you reached the maximum distance that the herd can go , beyond that back herd happens ie at the 9th shot , so now if you keep in mind the no of shots u fired by the vill u can probably predict when will the back herd will occur , even Rikikipu tested the back herd mechanics , check this tested by Rikikipu https://www.twitch.tv/videos/40655733 . So from seeing the video , you can see that bison can go as far as 80m and after that u shoot , the bisons retreats comes back to 60m , well 10m = 1 shot , if you shoot once the bison will move 10m , so when back herd happens u loose 2 shots and again u have to shoot it 2 times to bring back at the max distance. So this is in case of Bison , in case of other animals this is not the same , it depends on the animal , the fact is
more the Animals & food more distance it can go and vice-versa . So in that video if you check the distance covered by the deer it doesn't go as far as the bison , why? which is explained above . Still not satisfied? you can test them by yourself in scenario or playing vs comp.Well you can anticipate the maximum distance the herd can go only from the origin/epicentre if you herd the animal like at the 15th min , the herd would have probably moved from the origin so you guess the back herd at like 7th or like the 8th shot.Hope u understood the herding mechanics.
When to herd? Which animal should i herd first in the map ,were there are more than 1 type of animal?
This doubt will be in your head right? For this lets take a simple example , so if you are playing on great plains map , there are 2 types of animals viz deer, bison.Many will tend to rely on the bison and herd the bison than the deer? but why? so many may simply don't know the reason and just do it since everyone does it , so for those this would help , So imagine a situation where there are 2 animals on the left and right side of the map at a considerable distance ,where you can herd them towards your town centre , which one will you go first? In this situation we are taking that both the herds are the at the same distance from the tc , you must probably hunt the bison one because , it has more food and it can go to far distances since it has more food and the no of animals is more it will go far then the deer,that's why you wanna herd that first after that the deer , herding bison will give you more food and maximize the efficiency of your vills gathering and reduce your vills secs preventing less walking.So this applies for all the animals in the game.
It doesn't work for animals like elephant , tad animals, one of the reasons could be like for elephant there wont be like 10 elephants probably like 2-3 so it wont go far will move just a bit , why? In order to move your herds to max distance and bring near your tc you need 2 see 2 things:
1)Quantity of the animal ie is it large in no or not.
2)The amount of food it contains.
If these conditions satisfy then your herd will move faster and reach the max distance easily , otherwise they do not.
Ok now there are 2 methods to find when the back herd is gonna happen and the max distance a animal can travel ,one as the author of this post mentioned which is nice, 2nd by me i think many good players know this ,for players who don't know this ,this will be helpful , which one to follow? you can follow anything which suits you the best ,if you can remember the no of shots u fired with ur vill great! you can follow the concept i mentioned above else go with the author's concept.
I think i have give you ample of examples here for you guys to understand the concept , if you feel something is wrong or incorrect please tell me in the comment below , share your thoughts , and i by no means a pro , this is the knowledge i have & i wanted to share it here , hope it is clear and helpful , any doubts regarding this is always welcomed ,feel free to ask me.


Thanks man for the follow up post.My focus is mainly on mitigating the effects of backherding if possible. Btw does someone know how to reverse backherd? That could be a big thing if its at all possible.Regarding elephant herds and small herds, a step to preserve food could be to not kill any animal until the animals are underneath the TC as I've mentioned in 3(E).
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by Zhanson10 »

greatscythe11 wrote:
Zhanson10 wrote:Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.

User was warned for this post.


My apologies bro, it was a while back i think.I was still learning my german bo and had troubles with rushes. Also, I play with sound off(something in my place) so my game play is a little limited.Wish u would understand.Wish u all the best.

thanks for responding. I wasn't being aggressive I was really just curious. Your post was perhaps the incorrect place to post said question. Great essay! I have been shooting front animals in herds lately, although i havent seen a difference in how far they run.
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by Challenger_Marco »

greatscythe11 wrote:
Challenger_Marco wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote: Please feel free to offer your suggestions for improvements, criticisms, any necessary corrections as well as any other observations you want to share.The attached files are both in word and pdf so if someone wants to take it forward thats also fine by me.

Really Nice content! ,I would like to add some points here:
Its easy to detect back herds , How?
Well, you can detect them by the number of shots u fired for herding , take any herding animal (probably vanilla animals) eg , take a herd of Bison , so from the origin you herd it , it takes 8 shots to reach the maximum distance , no matter what the animal all have the same mechanics ( 8 shots) remember that one ,you can try this when playing offline pick a animal u want to herd and at the 8th shot you reached the maximum distance that the herd can go , beyond that back herd happens ie at the 9th shot , so now if you keep in mind the no of shots u fired by the vill u can probably predict when will the back herd will occur , even Rikikipu tested the back herd mechanics , check this tested by Rikikipu https://www.twitch.tv/videos/40655733 . So from seeing the video , you can see that bison can go as far as 80m and after that u shoot , the bisons retreats comes back to 60m , well 10m = 1 shot , if you shoot once the bison will move 10m , so when back herd happens u loose 2 shots and again u have to shoot it 2 times to bring back at the max distance. So this is in case of Bison , in case of other animals this is not the same , it depends on the animal , the fact is
more the Animals & food more distance it can go and vice-versa . So in that video if you check the distance covered by the deer it doesn't go as far as the bison , why? which is explained above . Still not satisfied? you can test them by yourself in scenario or playing vs comp.Well you can anticipate the maximum distance the herd can go only from the origin/epicentre if you herd the animal like at the 15th min , the herd would have probably moved from the origin so you guess the back herd at like 7th or like the 8th shot.Hope u understood the herding mechanics.
When to herd? Which animal should i herd first in the map ,were there are more than 1 type of animal?
This doubt will be in your head right? For this lets take a simple example , so if you are playing on great plains map , there are 2 types of animals viz deer, bison.Many will tend to rely on the bison and herd the bison than the deer? but why? so many may simply don't know the reason and just do it since everyone does it , so for those this would help , So imagine a situation where there are 2 animals on the left and right side of the map at a considerable distance ,where you can herd them towards your town centre , which one will you go first? In this situation we are taking that both the herds are the at the same distance from the tc , you must probably hunt the bison one because , it has more food and it can go to far distances since it has more food and the no of animals is more it will go far then the deer,that's why you wanna herd that first after that the deer , herding bison will give you more food and maximize the efficiency of your vills gathering and reduce your vills secs preventing less walking.So this applies for all the animals in the game.
It doesn't work for animals like elephant , tad animals, one of the reasons could be like for elephant there wont be like 10 elephants probably like 2-3 so it wont go far will move just a bit , why? In order to move your herds to max distance and bring near your tc you need 2 see 2 things:
1)Quantity of the animal ie is it large in no or not.
2)The amount of food it contains.
If these conditions satisfy then your herd will move faster and reach the max distance easily , otherwise they do not.
Ok now there are 2 methods to find when the back herd is gonna happen and the max distance a animal can travel ,one as the author of this post mentioned which is nice, 2nd by me i think many good players know this ,for players who don't know this ,this will be helpful , which one to follow? you can follow anything which suits you the best ,if you can remember the no of shots u fired with ur vill great! you can follow the concept i mentioned above else go with the author's concept.
I think i have give you ample of examples here for you guys to understand the concept , if you feel something is wrong or incorrect please tell me in the comment below , share your thoughts , and i by no means a pro , this is the knowledge i have & i wanted to share it here , hope it is clear and helpful , any doubts regarding this is always welcomed ,feel free to ask me.


Thanks man for the follow up post.My focus is mainly on mitigating the effects of backherding if possible. Btw does someone know how to reverse backherd? That could be a big thing if its at all possible.Regarding elephant herds and small herds, a step to preserve food could be to not kill any animal until the animals are underneath the TC as I've mentioned in 3(E).

Well u can't stop the backherds but I guess u can reduce the distance that they travel ,one way could be building walls around , other ways maybe a lot of trees surrounding them but not effective at all , so the best way is to cover up ur hunts with wall in order to prevent backherds I guess ,I guess will cost u around 150w for that 50 for the gate , If u find urslef nice treasures ,u can wall around ,but idk u can invest on other important things like for a market ,to , tech , etc.Depends on how game goes though , maybe this could be future meta for backherds and raid free , but I guess it won't be as there are fair maps now.
"Your post is barely comprehensible, please work on your punctuation, spelling and grammar." - Astaroth 2021
"No, you are the one doing the flaming ("fan boy")" - Astaroth 2021
No Flag greatscythe11
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Re: An Essay on Herding

Post by greatscythe11 »

Zhanson10 wrote:
greatscythe11 wrote:
Zhanson10 wrote:Oh yeah, greatscythe? Always playing german on gp? I have a question for you. Why do u always resign at 8 minutes? It's really annoying especially if you're looking for a serious game.

User was warned for this post.


My apologies bro, it was a while back i think.I was still learning my german bo and had troubles with rushes. Also, I play with sound off(something in my place) so my game play is a little limited.Wish u would understand.Wish u all the best.

thanks for responding. I wasn't being aggressive I was really just curious. Your post was perhaps the incorrect place to post said question. Great essay! I have been shooting front animals in herds lately, although i havent seen a difference in how far they run.


Have u tried both ranges, i.e.max(12) and lets say 9 on a herd on an unobstructed path(things like native outposts do hinder , i just don't know how much)?One of the ranges will give u straighter herding, you'll have to identify and remember for that herd. Then try that range on the front and rear animal.If u try to visually gauge the speeds both times, i think you'll see the difference.

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