United States of America capz90
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24 Nov 2016, 19:58

just had a general question when doing a regular german FF i usually have a problem coming up with enough wood to get market ups and also have enough housing to keep building vills and military, do you just leave a few vills on wood in fortress or you just send 1k wood once you are in fortress, feels like in some games if i send 1k wood ill fall behind in military
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Brazil macacoalbino
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24 Nov 2016, 22:43

What build are you doing?
Have you tried 3sw+700w?
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United States of America capz90
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25 Nov 2016, 00:34

nah i usually go 2sw 3sw 700g 700 wood.. then i build a barracks, save 200w for vet uhlan , and either build 3 houses or i get a market and some ups... but then im pop capped very quickly or i dont have any market ups
United States of America capz90
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25 Nov 2016, 00:35

its usually pretty bad with no 200w starts, cause then i have to chop for a tp and a house going to age 2 cant get a market
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Germany Lukas_L99
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25 Nov 2016, 01:06

capz90 wrote:nah i usually go 2sw 3sw 700g 700 wood.. then i build a barracks, save 200w for vet uhlan , and either build 3 houses or i get a market and some ups... but then im pop capped very quickly or i dont have any market ups


Build market and upgrade hunting dogs in age 1 or while transitioning to age 2 (if you started with 200 wood for a TP), then get the 10% upgrade and chop with vills when youre getting housed in age 3.
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25 Nov 2016, 01:08

This is a mitoe question. The man knows how to macro some Germans.
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25 Nov 2016, 01:16

seeing as there is a market usually in place, i would reccomend on double coin mine in base starts to buy 300wood for houses when and needed through the market as its more efficient, especially as you may likely already have placer mines and you DONT have to "idle" your vills/sw walking from mine to tree and you dont have to be so alert to when you chop each multiple of a hundred wood. I.E. by the time you realise to take vills off the tree you might of over-gathered by 40 wood and that actions per minute could be spend microing raiding instead. If you force a fight early on and trade effectively you wont need extra houses for the reinforcements aswell. some food for thought hear....
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25 Nov 2016, 01:17

lol _H20 has posted ~2500 more times than me :P
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25 Nov 2016, 01:48

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:seeing as there is a market usually in place, i would reccomend on double coin mine in base starts to buy 300wood for houses when and needed through the market as its more efficient, especially as you may likely already have placer mines and you DONT have to "idle" your vills/sw walking from mine to tree and you dont have to be so alert to when you chop each multiple of a hundred wood. I.E. by the time you realise to take vills off the tree you might of over-gathered by 40 wood and that actions per minute could be spend microing raiding instead. If you force a fight early on and trade effectively you wont need extra houses for the reinforcements aswell. some food for thought hear....


although buying wood is sometimes cost eficient, i wouldnt adivise it as part of the bo, germany usually runs out of mines way earlier then the enemy, spending too much gold in houses might make you have to look for your next gold mine too soon and create problems. (but yea, that 100w in a emegency happens to everyone.. :P)
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25 Nov 2016, 02:10

I usually make 2 FF with german : 3sw/700g or 3sw/700w.

The build is kinda the same : build what you didn't build in age 1 while aging up to colonial (TP if you started market, market if you started tp) and get placer mines and hunt dogs. Then gather an extra 125w, and upon age up (400w), get a 2nd TP, 2 houses and steel traps. Then if you send 700g, just age up ; if you send 700w, gather everything for your age up and use 700w to either get rax + stable + 3 houses, or to stagecoach boom (and then you use the wood from tps to get your infrastructures up).

The 3 sw / 700g one works only with an age 1 TP (or big xp treasure) because then you get 700g just in time (when you have like, 300g 1000f or so) for a perfect age up. It's really fast, actually the fastest way to age up to fortress without 500f age up (which is a bad politician anyway). If you do it well you can hit fortress before 7 min with a shipment ready, it's really nice. This is a useful build when you want to surprise your opponent ; for example in german mirror, if you do Mitoe's 700w/700g build, you aim for a 7-ish min timing, but you want to hit your opponent when he's aging up or massing in colonial, and use your superior mass to strike. If he's already age 3 when you push though, it means he will have a shipment + mm + 4 uhlans from colonial to hold your push, and should be np. It actually works pretty well like this against most slow pressures (like a spain guy going ATP stagecoach while pressuring you a bit with musk cav rod) or early timings. The problem is, you will usually have to chop a lot of wood after this. But after your first military shipment you can usually afford to send 1000w (because when you have a german age 3 shipment on the field before 8 min it's usually enough to scare your opponent away so you can afford to send crates), which makes up for it.

The 3 sw / 700w build is much greedier : you age slower (because you gather all gold for age up), maybe more like 8 min or so, but you have better infrastructures/TP boom. So it's basically an option against passive civs who will not punish you when you do this super greedy build, and against which trying to raid would be useless (think about a brit doing pike semi ff, or japan ashi semi ff, or a spain ff even though you might be a bit slow if he goes piroshiki style).

So up to you to choose between those 2 ways of ffing (don't think about 500f age up or slow age up, it's really bad imo), and keep in mind that anyway semi ff is still the better build in most cases.

Both those FF builds work exactly the same as france btw, except you gather only 25w instead of 125w, because you don't have free uhlans so you need only 1 house.
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25 Nov 2016, 02:14

capz90 wrote:nah i usually go 2sw 3sw 700g 700 wood.. then i build a barracks, save 200w for vet uhlan , and either build 3 houses or i get a market and some ups... but then im pop capped very quickly or i dont have any market ups

Oh and don't do this as german, your shipments come slower so usually sending 700w after 700g means you won't have a military shipment upon age up to 3, which is really dangerous (especially when you straight ff since you will only have a couple uhlans). And you get your market before age 2
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25 Nov 2016, 02:16

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:lol _H20 has posted ~2500 more times than me :P

You mean 100 times ?
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25 Nov 2016, 02:19

This:

Germany has 5 possible crate spawns, 3 with 300f and 2 with 200f. You have some options depending on which it is.

In general the rule of thumb is to get either a TP or a market from your starting crates if possible.

300f 200w - Ideal crate spawn. Build a TP and move all 3 SWs to wood until you have wood for your house, then to food.
300f 100w - Market start usually, unless early wood/food treasures help you grab a TP. Can chop 200w for a TP in some matchups, but risks aging later.
300f 100w 100c - Same as above.
200f 200w - TP start. Perfect vill spread is 1 SW to food, 2 to wood. 1st vill goes to food. When the 2nd vill is about to pop move 1 of the 2 wood SWs to wood and the new vill to wood. You should get wood for your house without idle time and just in time for your shipment.
200f 100w 100c - Worst possible start. Market start if possible, but consider waiting until transition.


Basically you should almost always have both a TP, a market, AND hunting dogs and placer mines researched before you reach age 2. Either you get a market or a TP from your starting crates and get the other in transition, or you build both in transition.

Once you have all of that up, depending on your treasures and how well your early game went, you can either chop an extra 25w, 125w, or 225w before you age up. This depends a bit on which cards you want to send in order to get to fortress and whether or not you want to make uhlans. I would recommend either 3 SW 700w 700c or 700w 3 SW 700c for an Uhlan semi-FF in most of your games.

Alternatively you can also send 3 SW 700w and make 0 uhlans, and just gather the resources to age, or 3 SW 700c like you seem to have been doing. If you do this I would recommend NOT sending 700w after your 700c. I think you're better off saving that shipment until you hit fortress for either a military shipment to hold a timing, or 1000w for the extra 300w and +1 uhlan if you're safe.

Edit: lol Kaiser and I were replying at the same time.
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No Flag ovi12
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25 Nov 2016, 02:23

Mitoe wrote:
Germany has 5 possible crate spawns, 3 with 300f and 2 with 200f. You have some options depending on which it is.

In general the rule of thumb is to get either a TP or a market from your starting crates if possible.

300f 200w - Ideal crate spawn. Build a TP and move all 3 SWs to wood until you have wood for your house, then to food.
300f 100w - Market start usually, unless early wood/food treasures help you grab a TP. Can chop 200w for a TP in some matchups, but risks aging later.
300f 100w 100c - Same as above.
200f 200w - TP start. Perfect vill spread is 1 SW to food, 2 to wood. 1st vill goes to food. When the 2nd vill is about to pop move 1 of the 2 wood SWs to wood and the new vill to wood. You should get wood for your house without idle time and just in time for your shipment.
200f 100w 100c - Worst possible start. Market start if possible, but consider waiting until transition.


Basically you should almost always have both a TP, a market, AND hunting dogs and placer mines researched before you reach age 2. Either you get a market or a TP from your starting crates and get the other in transition, or you build both in transition.

Once you have all of that up, depending on your treasures and how well your early game went, you can either chop an extra 25w, 125w, or 225w before you age up. This depends a bit on which cards you want to send in order to get to fortress and whether or not you want to make uhlans. I would recommend either 3 SW 700w 700c or 700w 3 SW 700c for an Uhlan semi-FF in most of your games.

Alternatively you can also send 3 SW 700w and make 0 uhlans, and just gather the resources to age, or 3 SW 700c like you seem to have been doing. If you do this I would recommend NOT sending 700w after your 700c. I think you're better off saving that shipment until you hit fortress for either a military shipment to hold a timing, or 1000w for the extra 300w and +1 uhlan if you're safe.

Edit: lol Kaiser and I were replying at the same time.


How is 200f 100w 100c worse than 300f 100w? The first is just more VS. Doing early market on both, I've always struggled the most with 300f 100w.
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25 Nov 2016, 02:36

It's worse because sometimes you can't afford to market on either of those starts, because your resources spawn far from your TC or you can't afford to age up late in that matchup etc. So if you need to just gather to age you might be slower cause of the coin. Also with 300f starts you can sometimes even chop 200w for a TP, but this is impossible on 200f 100w 100c.

300f 100w just gives you more options.
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25 Nov 2016, 12:32

Mitoe wrote:It's worse because sometimes you can't afford to market on either of those starts, because your resources spawn far from your TC or you can't afford to age up late in that matchup etc. So if you need to just gather to age you might be slower cause of the coin. Also with 300f starts you can sometimes even chop 200w for a TP, but this is impossible on 200f 100w 100c.

300f 100w just gives you more options.


300f 100w market? meh. Gotta get some treasures or will be awkward.
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France Kaiserklein
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25 Nov 2016, 14:33

Yeah without treasures you would have to age up 18, but if you have for example just a 50g treasure you will have 700f when the 17h vil goes out, which is really decent. And honestly you almost always have this kind of small treasure to help you
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27 Nov 2016, 04:08

You can always sell food for 75 coin, if necessary ;)
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27 Nov 2016, 08:31

Imo when you ff, just age 18 with market+TP before aging, you want to gather resources so having one extra vill in age 1 and the TP sooner is just worth.
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27 Nov 2016, 11:27

Market+tp is not always possible with 18 age up, you can actually probs do this only on 200w 300f start, otherwise I don't see it happening. Or then you need a big treasure. Anyway aging later isn't even so good because it delays 3 sw
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27 Nov 2016, 13:29

Diarouga wrote:Imo when you ff, just age 18 with market+TP before aging, you want to gather resources so having one extra vill in age 1 and the TP sooner is just worth.
I would always TP in age1 when FFing. Not necessarily market though
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France Kaiserklein
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27 Nov 2016, 13:30

You can't even always TP in age 1
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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27 Nov 2016, 13:31

Yeah with the coin start and 200f I would probably opt for a different build
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France Diarouga
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27 Nov 2016, 13:33

Kaiserklein wrote:Market+tp is not always possible with 18 age up, you can actually probs do this only on 200w 300f start, otherwise I don't see it happening. Or then you need a big treasure. Anyway aging later isn't even so good because it delays 3 sw

You can.
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France Kaiserklein
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27 Nov 2016, 13:38

No
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